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Kaggath Series: Grievous vs Malgus

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Grievous vs Malgus

GarfieldJL's Avatar


GarfieldJL
11.21.2012 , 08:30 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
General Grievous wins because:

1.) Numbers advantage
2.) Support of hundreds of worlds (Bigger power-base/ biological troops)
3.) Adaptable troops*
4.) General, not Emporer*
5.) Lack of 1v1 fight

* (3) = New arguement: The droid army had droids for every type of terrain. Underwater, space, ice and snow, swamp, you name it. If the battleground is the entire galaxy, this adaptability would prove an advantage over the more standard army soldiers of Malgus.

*(4) = New arguement: General Grievous knows how to comand an army. We see this in the Clones Wars, seeing as the CIS actually win many battles. But is Malgus a general? Well, at his height, he is an Emporer, which does not mean he directly tells his troops what to do. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Grievous's expirience as a General, not a ruler, would give his forces a tacticle edge in any battle.

Winner = Grievous
Malgus sacked Coruscant, he was a good General, he also didn't cower near the escape pods.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.21.2012 , 08:39 PM | #32
The problem with this comparison is this: Greivous' droids. We see them shown in many different ways. In some cases they're depicted as emotionless robots who drown you with numbers, while in other instances, they are pathetic droids WHO GIVE UP (watch TCW). Since the latter droids are more commonly depicted in Star Wars, I will make my decision with pathetic droids in mind.

Also - how big would Malgus' army be? Is this when he went rogue? If so, I'm afraid he just lacks the resources and numbers to win. But if this is when he is commanding troops of the Sith Empire, then I really don't honestly know how many he'd have.

note: For arguments sake, I'll say that about 15 droids is the equivalent of 1 Imperial (this is a average of all the troops, Sith, and droids in the Imperial army)

I'll name the advantages here:
Best one-on-one duelist? Malgus
Best General? Close, but Malgus leads from the front lines + he's a force user so I'll give him the edge
Most numbers? Grievous (although the fact that his droids suck is a factor)
Best resources? Grievous

In the end, it all depends on how many men Malgus has at his disposal. So it's very hard to make a decision.

What the heck... MALGUS FOR THE WIN!!!!

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
11.21.2012 , 09:21 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
The problem with this comparison is this: Greivous' droids. We see them shown in many different ways. In some cases they're depicted as emotionless robots who drown you with numbers, while in other instances, they are pathetic droids WHO GIVE UP (watch TCW). Since the latter droids are more commonly depicted in Star Wars, I will make my decision with pathetic droids in mind.

Also - how big would Malgus' army be? Is this when he went rogue? If so, I'm afraid he just lacks the resources and numbers to win. But if this is when he is commanding troops of the Sith Empire, then I really don't honestly know how many he'd have.

note: For arguments sake, I'll say that about 15 droids is the equivalent of 1 Imperial (this is a average of all the troops, Sith, and droids in the Imperial army)

I'll name the advantages here:
Best one-on-one duelist? Malgus
Best General? Close, but Malgus leads from the front lines + he's a force user so I'll give him the edge
Most numbers? Grievous (although the fact that his droids suck is a factor)
Best resources? Grievous

In the end, it all depends on how many men Malgus has at his disposal. So it's very hard to make a decision.

What the heck... MALGUS FOR THE WIN!!!!
1.) Droid Wits
What you are refering to as the droids that give up are the B1 Battle droids. The brown, weak ones. However, the CIS army is MUCH more than those. Let's not foget B2 (Super) Battle droids, and countless other types (Scroll down to "Members" on this page: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Separatist_Droid_Army ). Most were not as stupid and pathetic as the B1s, who were basically just a meat-sheild to protect tanks and other more valuble droids and attempt to overwhelm enemies with pure numbers.

2.) Malgus's Forces
Good question.... I kinda assumed it'd be when he went rouge, considering it's about his personal power base.... but I don't know. Either way, Grievous still wins on numbers.

3.) 15-1
Even with mainly "pathetic droids" (B1) at the Battle of Geonosis, 170 Jedi were killed. The fifteen to one comparison may be a little extreme considering that in the Battle of Geonosis 12,000 Clones died. Unfortunately we have no droid casualty to compare it to, but, as I said, even with these "Give-up droids" they were able to do lots of damage. Let's not forget that B1 is not the only type of droid.

ReiKai's Avatar


ReiKai
11.21.2012 , 11:42 PM | #34
I wouldn't compare twelve-thousand dead Clones who had no battle experience with hardened Imperial Troopers with decades of experience, including Kaleesh warriors and other alien fighters that Malgus has convinced to join in his cause. Also, when Malgus turned traitor, he took his power base with him. All those loyal to him went with him as he took control of the Emperor's mobile battle station, which he used to outfit his fleet with stealth generators. That is a huge advantage over Grievous.

Both Malgus' fleet and the station are cloaked. This enables Malgus to attack at any time of his choosing, undetected and without warning. Numbers don't amount to much in the face of an enemy it cannot see or detect. All they can go on is the light of the blaster fire.

What we have is a case of Quality vs Quantity. Malgus has Quality soldiers, equipment, technology, Sith and a mobile base of operations. Grievous has Quantity; numerous droids of various makes and a fleet of ships. Despite the different types of Droids under his command, most, if not all of them, are still bested by Clone Troopers. Super Battle Droids aren't that tough. Commando Droids are probably the only real threat, but can still be taken down. Destroyers would be a nuisance, but as we've seen there are ways passed their personal shields and they have an easily exploitable weakness.
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MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.22.2012 , 06:57 AM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
1.) Droid Wits
What you are refering to as the droids that give up are the B1 Battle droids. The brown, weak ones. However, the CIS army is MUCH more than those. Let's not foget B2 (Super) Battle droids, and countless other types (Scroll down to "Members" on this page: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Separatist_Droid_Army ). Most were not as stupid and pathetic as the B1s, who were basically just a meat-sheild to protect tanks and other more valuble droids and attempt to overwhelm enemies with pure numbers.

2.) Malgus's Forces
Good question.... I kinda assumed it'd be when he went rouge, considering it's about his personal power base.... but I don't know. Either way, Grievous still wins on numbers.

3.) 15-1
Even with mainly "pathetic droids" (B1) at the Battle of Geonosis, 170 Jedi were killed. The fifteen to one comparison may be a little extreme considering that in the Battle of Geonosis 12,000 Clones died. Unfortunately we have no droid casualty to compare it to, but, as I said, even with these "Give-up droids" they were able to do lots of damage. Let's not forget that B1 is not the only type of droid.
I don't know what the ratio (in the droid army) of pathetic droids to non-pathetic droids, but we see WAY more pathetic droids in episodes 1, 2, 3, and the TCW then other droids.

You're right though, we don't know exactly how many droids were killed at Geonosis, so let's observe TCW for this. Remember the 2nd battle of Geonosis. Anakin says he killed somewhere around 50 droids, and Ki-Adi-Mundi killed around 60 (I think). Obviously, the average of the Imperial army won't be 50 or 60, but it'll be high. Look at the clones. I've got no idea how many men Rex killed in his life. Or take Heavy from the rookies episode. He killed DOZENS of droids - and he hadn't had any previous battle experience!

The fact remains: the vast majority of the droid army is made up of pathetic droids, and the pathetic droids are... well....pathetic.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.22.2012 , 07:01 AM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by ReiKai View Post
I wouldn't compare twelve-thousand dead Clones who had no battle experience with hardened Imperial Troopers with decades of experience, including Kaleesh warriors and other alien fighters that Malgus has convinced to join in his cause. Also, when Malgus turned traitor, he took his power base with him. All those loyal to him went with him as he took control of the Emperor's mobile battle station, which he used to outfit his fleet with stealth generators. That is a huge advantage over Grievous.

Both Malgus' fleet and the station are cloaked. This enables Malgus to attack at any time of his choosing, undetected and without warning. Numbers don't amount to much in the face of an enemy it cannot see or detect. All they can go on is the light of the blaster fire.

What we have is a case of Quality vs Quantity. Malgus has Quality soldiers, equipment, technology, Sith and a mobile base of operations. Grievous has Quantity; numerous droids of various makes and a fleet of ships. Despite the different types of Droids under his command, most, if not all of them, are still bested by Clone Troopers. Super Battle Droids aren't that tough. Commando Droids are probably the only real threat, but can still be taken down. Destroyers would be a nuisance, but as we've seen there are ways passed their personal shields and they have an easily exploitable weakness.
I would take quality over quantity any day.

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
11.22.2012 , 08:18 AM | #37
Quote:
I wouldn't compare twelve-thousand dead Clones who had no battle experience with hardened Imperial Troopers with decades of experience.

Or take Heavy from the rookies episode. He killed DOZENS of droids - and he hadn't had any previous battle experience!
You're working against your own argument here. Clones were literally programmed to be warriors. They spent their entire lives training. Their programming and life-time of war readyness is why they were such effective troops. To say that an Imperial (from SWTOR) would be a better soldier than a clone is completely inaccurate.

If anything, Malgus's forces would be the ones not ready to face the droid army.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.22.2012 , 08:28 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
You're working against your own argument here. Clones were literally programmed to be warriors. They spent their entire lives training. Their programming and life-time of war readyness is why they were such effective troops. To say that an Imperial (from SWTOR) would be a better soldier than a clone is completely inaccurate.

If anything, Malgus's forces would be the ones not ready to face the droid army.
The clones (the regular ones) are not THAT superior to Imperials. Remember stormtroopers?

Any how, if that's not good enough for you, then how about this: Have you seen the Onderon story arc in TCW season 5? The rebels get a FEW DAYS of training and they still make the droids look pathetic. The Imperials are doubtlessly better then those rebels.

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
11.22.2012 , 09:22 AM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
The clones (the regular ones) are not THAT superior to Imperials. Remember stormtroopers?

Any how, if that's not good enough for you, then how about this: Have you seen the Onderon story arc in TCW season 5? The rebels get a FEW DAYS of training and they still make the droids look pathetic. The Imperials are doubtlessly better then those rebels.
*Facepalm* The Stormtroopers are NOT clones. Well, the ones in episode IV aren't. Clones age twice as fast as normal humans, and clone production on Kamino stopped at the end of the clone wars. In that 20 year gap, the remaining clones aged twice as fast. Meaning that even ones made at the very end would end up being 40 by the time of A New Hope. Humans were recruited to fill the ranks of the Stormtroopers and clones quickly became a minority. So yes, I remember Stormtroopers, and how hardly any of them were clones.

Those were rebels. Terrorists. That wasn't an actual battle. Are droids weak against a covert strike on one of their minor bases? Maybe. But that does not mean that they are any less deadly on an actual battlefield where they have their full numbers. Army vs. army is much different than strike team vs. small battalion.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.22.2012 , 09:38 AM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
*Facepalm* The Stormtroopers are NOT clones. Well, the ones in episode IV aren't. Clones age twice as fast as normal humans, and clone production on Kamino stopped at the end of the clone wars. In that 20 year gap, the remaining clones aged twice as fast. Meaning that even ones made at the very end would end up being 40 by the time of A New Hope. Humans were recruited to fill the ranks of the Stormtroopers and clones quickly became a minority. So yes, I remember Stormtroopers, and how hardly any of them were clones.

Those were rebels. Terrorists. That wasn't an actual battle. Are droids weak against a covert strike on one of their minor bases? Maybe. But that does not mean that they are any less deadly on an actual battlefield where they have their full numbers. Army vs. army is much different than strike team vs. small battalion.
"I find your lack of faith in Imperials...disturbing." lol just kidding.

But do you think that Imperials are incapable of guirella warfare? Maglus isn't an idiot. He'd have plenty of that stuff up his sleeve. Remember, he's the guy in TOR that sends all Imperial strike teams out to do stuff. He knows all about that kind of stuff.

You don't seem to realize how bad regular droids are. What about Padme? She kicked droid butt! How much training did she have? She had HANDMAIDEN training! 99% of Imperials are gonna be better equiped and better trained then she was, and yet she also makes the droids look pathetic. Tell me; how many droids did she killed in her time? I'm pretty sure she killed over 15 of them.

Also (I'm not certain about this) but I think Malgus would have more Sith at his disposal then the Republic had Jedi in TCW.