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P2W is bad?


DegreesOfFreedom's Avatar


DegreesOfFreedom
11.13.2012 , 09:35 PM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthOvertone View Post
This may be the case for PvE where gear progression is actually relevant to content progression. However, in PvP, I don't think the integrity of the game would be impacted in a negative way at all. In the end, gear progression in SWTOR PvP is simply a matter of time spent. That's why it fits so well within the area of Convenience.

Oddly enough, it could be argued that an option of this sort would actually help the integrity of PvP in this game. Real PvPers just want good fights anyway and the current gear gap is an obstacle to these happening at times. Since many players dislike the gear grind and bemoan the gear gap, they would have an opportunity to put their money where their mouth is.

And the claim that these peeps would become instant winners because of this is absurd. Trust me, a large lot of players in this game are just bad. All the gear in the world won't help them succeed. The idea that you will Win in PvP just because you can gear up with CC is absurd. Bad players are bad and would still get smoked even in Elite War Hero Uber Jedi PWN Gear. BW will just be that much richer and we won't have to listen to the gear grind/gap excuses anymore.
Hey man, thanks for keeping it civil. I see what you are saying here. I actually agree with you. Personally, I fundamentally dislike any gear progression in pvp. In my opinion, they should have kept that in pve. If pvp has to have any progression it has to be in ranking numbers, or titles alone, not gear. However, I have to disagree with the solution you are proposing. Just step back and think about it for one second. You said that implementing this idea of people having the ability to pay for gear will equalize the level playing field, thus, as you say, strengthen the integrity of the pvp game. My problem with this is - why do you have to pay in the first place? If gear equality is what you are after then why not just redesign the game based on that concept? Implementing this idea will make it look like bioware is very underhanded creating a self inflicted gear inequality just for people to pay to equalize it. I hope you understand where I'm getting at.

Labradoraki's Avatar


Labradoraki
11.13.2012 , 11:28 PM | #122
to tho whining about losing the achievement of getting the gear: ii am not a retarded little kid that has nothing in his life to feel good about himself and need virtual game challenges to feel good about myself, not to say that grinding isnt a challenge since even a mentally handicapped person can do it.
Some people simply want equal footing in pvp now

DaedalusV's Avatar


DaedalusV
11.14.2012 , 12:14 AM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by Labradoraki View Post
to tho whining about losing the achievement of getting the gear: ii am not a retarded little kid that has nothing in his life to feel good about himself and need virtual game challenges to feel good about myself, not to say that grinding isnt a challenge since even a mentally handicapped person can do it.
Some people simply want equal footing in pvp now
It has been mentioned before in this thread. It's got nothing to do with people liking the grind, if gear equality is what Bioware shoots for, then give out WH or BM armour for free.

Making subscribers pay twice for the game to be competative is counterproductive and will end in the death of SWTOR.
"you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
Arwyn Sage Blitzkrieger Sentinel Sk'ye Guardian

Rassuro's Avatar


Rassuro
11.14.2012 , 01:03 AM | #124
*** happened with this thread?

Reading this makes my eyes bleed, and it seems like the Grind-2-Win people are still refusing to understand the viewpoint of the other side...

Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
P2W means you aren't playing the game to beat it's challenges and get it's rewards, you're paying to skip it's challenges and get it's rewards.
First, stop calling it P2W, P2W is when you get gear which you cannot get by playing the game normally.

Second, I do not understand why you Grind-2-Win people still keep posting stuff like this. We all already get it, for you, the "challenge" of the game is for you to keep playing the game a lot.
For some of you, the reward is getting a +5 to your stats, because then you finally get to feel like you managed to accomplish something in your life.
For others, you simply suck at the game and the reward is that you can finally be competitive in the game because of your gear advantage.
If G2W was removed from the game, then you know that you would instantly lose the only advantage you have, which is time, and you know that in a Skill-2-Win system it will be impossible for you to keep up with other players.

For the Skill-2-Win people, the challenge of the game is in learning to become better at it, and the reward is either overcoming that challenge, or just simply having fun while going for it.
As long as Grind-2-Win is in the game, it is bad for all S2W people, because regardless of what the quality our gear is, there are always people with either better or worse gear than what we have.

I won't bother making more replies to this thread, have a nice day.
Toor, 50 Operative healer | Odaen, 50 Assassin tank | Tiyr, 50 Vanguard tank | Zerofour, 50 Mercenary DPS | The Red Eclipse

Darth-Rammstein's Avatar


Darth-Rammstein
11.14.2012 , 01:15 AM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by Rassuro View Post
*** happened with this thread?

Reading this makes my eyes bleed, and it seems like the Grind-2-Win people are still refusing to understand the viewpoint of the other side...


First, stop calling it P2W, P2W is when you get gear which you cannot get by playing the game normally.

Second, I do not understand why you Grind-2-Win people still keep posting stuff like this. We all already get it, for you, the "challenge" of the game is for you to keep playing the game a lot.
For some of you, the reward is getting a +5 to your stats, because then you finally get to feel like you managed to accomplish something in your life.
For others, you simply suck at the game and the reward is that you can finally be competitive in the game because of your gear advantage.
If G2W was removed from the game, then you know that you would instantly lose the only advantage you have, which is time, and you know that in a Skill-2-Win system it will be impossible for you to keep up with other players.

For the Skill-2-Win people, the challenge of the game is in learning to become better at it, and the reward is either overcoming that challenge, or just simply having fun while going for it.
As long as Grind-2-Win is in the game, it is bad for all S2W people, because regardless of what the quality our gear is, there are always people with either better or worse gear than what we have.

I won't bother making more replies to this thread, have a nice day.
This pretty much sums it up, but I guess people like gear diversity in wzs? Personally I'd like everyone to be on even footing stat wise and make it skill based.
Belgoth's Beacon ----> The Fatman ----> Prophecy of the Five

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.14.2012 , 04:49 AM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by Rassuro View Post
*** happened with this thread?

Reading this makes my eyes bleed, and it seems like the Grind-2-Win people are still refusing to understand the viewpoint of the other side...


First, stop calling it P2W, P2W is when you get gear which you cannot get by playing the game normally.

Second, I do not understand why you Grind-2-Win people still keep posting stuff like this. We all already get it, for you, the "challenge" of the game is for you to keep playing the game a lot.
For some of you, the reward is getting a +5 to your stats, because then you finally get to feel like you managed to accomplish something in your life.
For others, you simply suck at the game and the reward is that you can finally be competitive in the game because of your gear advantage.
If G2W was removed from the game, then you know that you would instantly lose the only advantage you have, which is time, and you know that in a Skill-2-Win system it will be impossible for you to keep up with other players.

For the Skill-2-Win people, the challenge of the game is in learning to become better at it, and the reward is either overcoming that challenge, or just simply having fun while going for it.
As long as Grind-2-Win is in the game, it is bad for all S2W people, because regardless of what the quality our gear is, there are always people with either better or worse gear than what we have.

I won't bother making more replies to this thread, have a nice day.
Dude grinding is what keeps people playing. It's that whole "carrot on a stick" mentality that people enjoy and entices them to keep playing. If there was no gear progression, people wouldn't play that nearly as often. RPGs are about char progression of some kind. You take that away, and it's no longer an RPG.

Look at GW2 and their spvp where everyone has equal gear. Not many people participate in it at all.

fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
11.14.2012 , 07:58 AM | #127
Fact is- the pvp in this game is not appealing to people as is. PvP queues plummeted after 1.2, and other than marauders this game has recieved half a year of nothing but negative criticism- while the people who like it defend it by saying 'if you don't like it, leave'.

Well, guess what- we're now going f2p because everyone left, we're down to 8 servers that are all still considerably more dead than my medium-heavy server was before 1.2 in a list of dozens, f2p is not going to entice people to come back- you think people are going to love being stomped in recruit blues- because remember you can't even wear purple gear as a f2p (which, btw- ipso facto makes this game a pay to win, that can't even be debated against when gear that lets you last more than two hits is virtually out of your reach as a free to play).

You can continue to hold to the assumption that hundreds of hours of pvp before you are on equal footing, gross imbalance, and the absurd abundance of CC is a good thing for pvp- or you can look at the facts that prove this game's pvp is nearly dead- as is the game.

I am mind boggled that people are still defending blindly BW's awful choices and STILL running out with the 'don't play if you don't like it' as this game sits on its death knell and a f2p model that already looks like one of the most atrocious ones in a north american mmo ever.

At some point BW, and biodrones, you have to come to the conclusion that your arrogant way of thinking- that people just want to play this game so badly that they'll put up with exceedingly steep requirements, brutal locked features for f2p (hide head slot... quickbars.... seriously? You're making UI options part of your money making scheme?), and a dev crew that never communicates and when they do they either haven't listened to a thing that's been said or seem to be going off of feedback from months ago. (so, hopefully they'll get to the post 1.2 feedback by January).

Why not instead make a game that is fun to play for p2p and f2p, where being on equal footing in pvp isn't an issue- pve is fine because you can pick a dungeon to progress in, where you fight enemies at your level, but pvp regardless of your gear you're fighting NM mode operations every time. Make pvp about ranking, gear appearance, titles, pets, mounts, etc.... Make standard pvp free and make f2p buy the right to go to tournaments- where ultra rare gear looks, crystals, etc... are rewards.

You have tried the 'grind through being one shot for hundreds of hours' path- it failed. Maybe it's time to actually do something- rather than continue to hope that your consumers will suddenly have a change of heart and enjoy losing without a chance for months to get gear that'll probably have just become obsolete.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.14.2012 , 08:26 AM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by Rassuro View Post
*** happened with this thread?

Reading this makes my eyes bleed, and it seems like the Grind-2-Win people are still refusing to understand the viewpoint of the other side...


First, stop calling it P2W, P2W is when you get gear which you cannot get by playing the game normally.

Second, I do not understand why you Grind-2-Win people still keep posting stuff like this. We all already get it, for you, the "challenge" of the game is for you to keep playing the game a lot.
For some of you, the reward is getting a +5 to your stats, because then you finally get to feel like you managed to accomplish something in your life.
For others, you simply suck at the game and the reward is that you can finally be competitive in the game because of your gear advantage.
If G2W was removed from the game, then you know that you would instantly lose the only advantage you have, which is time, and you know that in a Skill-2-Win system it will be impossible for you to keep up with other players.

For the Skill-2-Win people, the challenge of the game is in learning to become better at it, and the reward is either overcoming that challenge, or just simply having fun while going for it.
As long as Grind-2-Win is in the game, it is bad for all S2W people, because regardless of what the quality our gear is, there are always people with either better or worse gear than what we have.

I won't bother making more replies to this thread, have a nice day

TLDR = I'm butt hurt cause people beat me, and gear is a convient excuse. A good player in Battlemaster can (and usually will) beat an average player in War Hero..
^ Fixed that for you.

That being said, yes I've been using the term Pay to Win loosely, but once again it's a slippery slope. If you'd read what I said about Perfect World, you'll know little things like exp boosters, small ammounts of gear, etc... can grow into a monster money gobbling system.

As for your little tirade about gear... I think the gear grind is stupid myself. Yet, I can comprehend that Progression based PvP is how MMO's operate. I'm not going to gimp myself by not completing the tasks (I'll stop using the word challenges, since people can't seem to understand that) to progress. More over, the point still stands:

Games have tasks to complete for a reward. All games have this, no matter what the genre or type.

If you can do something outside the game to get the reward (paying for it, hacking, etc...) then the game becomes pointless. You no longer have to do the tasks to get the reward. Thus, Paying for Gear/Win/Whatever is bad.

=P and you really should read what you write before you post, you sound butt hurt.

CommanderKeeva's Avatar


CommanderKeeva
11.14.2012 , 09:41 AM | #129
I'll just stop posting in this thread because it's ridiculous where it has deteriorated to. I'll make one more rational argument against play to win in the hope that it might convince you of just how utterly ridiculous P2W is:

1. I subscribe. Therefore I pay to play.
2. I pay for gear to skip grinding/content/challenges (call it whatever you want)
3. By paying for gear i skip said content and therefore not play the game.
4. Therefore I pay (twice!) NOT to play the game.

What's the next thing you want? An option to have a level50 character immediately available for purchase with rank100 valor and 2500 rating with 100.000 million credits decked out in min/maxed Elite Warlord gear on the character creation scene because you don't want to waste time leveling them up to 50?

A skill that automatically kills any enemy because you don't want to waste time learning and practicing a proper rotation?

Access to all the achievement based titles/speeders/pets because you cannot be arsed to complete the required flashpoints/operations/warzones and obtain the required rating?

Why not just pay 100 dollars and skip to straight to the credits without ever stepping foot on those annoying planets or doing those annoying quests? Much faster.

I'll say it for one last time: I have a relatively well paying job (I'm no Bill Gates but I have a home, car, etc.). I'm not asking for special treatment at my workplace because I'm good at playing SWTOR. I'm not asking for special treatment in SWTOR because I'm good at my job. Simple as that. Two distinct fields of life that have 0 impact on each other. If you want instant success at PvP, where everyone has the same gear, then GW2 is your game. If you want instant success at PvP, where you don't need any special tactics and learning beyond pressing a few buttons, then CoD or BF is your game. SWTOR is an MMO game. MMO games are the most time-consuming of all games, which means that either you play it and enjoy it or move on to another game that rewards you more for less effort.
BEING A GOOD SOLDIER COMES DOWN TO ONE THING, ONE SINGLE QUESTION:
WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO SACRIFICE?

CommanderKeeva's Avatar


CommanderKeeva
11.14.2012 , 11:08 AM | #130
Quote: Originally Posted by fungihoujo View Post
Why not instead make a game that is fun to play for p2p and f2p, where being on equal footing in pvp isn't an issue- pve is fine because you can pick a dungeon to progress in, where you fight enemies at your level, but pvp regardless of your gear you're fighting NM mode operations every time. Make pvp about ranking, gear appearance, titles, pets, mounts, etc.... Make standard pvp free and make f2p buy the right to go to tournaments- where ultra rare gear looks, crystals, etc... are rewards.
There are many ways to fix pvp and those are good ideas. Put in a proper match making system, a Recruit bracket at 50, offer more incentive for rateds, fix class imbalance, do away with fotm classes, fix resolve and maybe even try a separate solo queue for a few weeks?

These are very good ideas that if implemented would improve PvP immensely for both new casuals and hardcore veterans. Leaving everything unchanged but allowing players to simply buy gear would stress the existing problems even further.
BEING A GOOD SOLDIER COMES DOWN TO ONE THING, ONE SINGLE QUESTION:
WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO SACRIFICE?