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P2W is bad?


Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.13.2012 , 05:22 PM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
P2W TAKES OUT ALL THE CHALLENGE TO GET REWARD! G2W DOESN'T!
Okay, you're saying that P2W doesn't have challenge, and that grind 2 win does. So let me think: what does grind to win have that pay to win doesn't? .... grinding. So if you're saying that P2W doesn't have challenge but G2W does, you're telling me that grinding is the challenge. And if this game is about who has the most time on their hands... then... gah thank God halo 4 just came out so I have something to run back to.
BOTTOM LINE: Your point only works if you're admitting to PvP (NOTE: Player vs Player) being about measuring the time the player has grinded, and not his or her skill. The former goes against anyone's doctrine on the matter and the latter invalidates your point
Take a step back for a second, and forget "what' the challenge is. There is a challenge, and there is a reward. If you buy the reward, you didn't complete the challenges. It would be like paying five bucks for mario to save the princess... pointless.

Back on topic... you don't like the grind, we got it. Yet you can not say the "grind" is not one of this games challenges. Most xbox games have a kill X achievement in them. It's not the kind of challenge you like, but it is a challenge. Also, yes the gear reward for pvp is a bad reward... but it's how the game works.

Once again, if you consider the tasks you have to complete "work" rather than playing, you're playing the wrong game. =P your in luck, Halo 4 just came out right?

Zunayson's Avatar


Zunayson
11.13.2012 , 05:33 PM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Take a step back for a second, and forget "what' the challenge is. There is a challenge, and there is a reward. If you buy the reward, you didn't complete the challenges. It would be like paying five bucks for mario to save the princess... pointless.

Back on topic... you don't like the grind, we got it. Yet you can not say the "grind" is not one of this games challenges. Most xbox games have a kill X achievement in them. It's not the kind of challenge you like, but it is a challenge. Also, yes the gear reward for pvp is a bad reward... but it's how the game works.

Once again, if you consider the tasks you have to complete "work" rather than playing, you're playing the wrong game. =P your in luck, Halo 4 just came out right?
Okay, time to simplify all games or competitions challenges to a simple formula:
You input an X value. For Halo 'tis skill. For this game I hope/wish it was skill
You do a mathematical process. This changes and allows you to measure a new value. For Halo 'tis the gameplay of shooting people up. For this game I hope/wish it is knowing your class, and strategically gearing up by weighting your stats.
You output a Y value. For Halo 'tis victory, xp, bragging rights, and that warm feeling I get . For this game it's victory, xp, bragging rights, and WZ comms

Or, the analogy I wub moar is a science experiment, I'll explain why I love this one more:
You change an independent variable. See X values from above.
You do a scientific procedure. See process from above.
You measure a dependent variable. See Y values from above.

the reason I love this is because you don't complain that someone is more skillful in Halo, stronger in Football, or more ____ in TOR. This is the point. You change an independent variable. you're finding it's effect on the dependent variable. It's supposed to change. As a result, the dependent variable changes.

So a question arises: what's the independent variable? Are we changing skill or gear? Remember, you can only change one thing! If we're measuring gear, then you cannot complain that someone has better gear - thats like complaining about someone who has more skill in a rational competitive game. If this is so, then one who has the better gear should always win because math does not lie. This is, however, not the case.

TL;DR You're wrong.
TADSM (That Answer Didn't Satisfy Me): Games measure one thing and keep the rest as constants. What does SWTOR change?
Quote: Originally Posted by Uber_the_Goober View Post
Bioware couldn't balance a sheet of plywood if it were laying [sic] on the ground.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aragost View Post
Make sure you take 3/3 in the "knowing how to play" box

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.13.2012 , 05:45 PM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
TL;DR You're wrong.
TADSM (That Answer Didn't Satisfy Me): Games measure one thing and keep the rest as constants. What does SWTOR change?
Your question is why is P2W bad? All you just wrote is wasted breath. Pay to Win is bad because it bypasses whatever challenge you have to complete in game, and gives you the rewards.

Sure, let's say the challenge in Halo is skill. Pay to win means you'd buy a victory.
*rolls eyes* Let's say the challenge in ToR is time invested (cause knowing your class, customizing your gear, forming a team, working strategy... etc... has nothing to do with who wins). Pay to Win bypasses time invested and gives you the rewards.

So why is P2W bad? Because it renders the game pointless. Whether it's "skill" or "time invested" that is required for the challenge of the game, handing over money from an out of game activity bypasses that, and gives you the rewards. Like I said, it's like paying 5 bucks so you can see Mario save the Princess.

Zunayson's Avatar


Zunayson
11.13.2012 , 06:02 PM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Your question is why is P2W bad? All you just wrote is wasted breath. Pay to Win is bad because it bypasses whatever challenge you have to complete in game, and gives you the rewards.

Sure, let's say the challenge in Halo is skill. Pay to win means you'd buy a victory.
*rolls eyes* Let's say the challenge in ToR is time invested (cause knowing your class, customizing your gear, forming a team, working strategy... etc... has nothing to do with who wins). Pay to Win bypasses time invested and gives you the rewards.

So why is P2W bad? Because it renders the game pointless. Whether it's "skill" or "time invested" that is required for the challenge of the game, handing over money from an out of game activity bypasses that, and gives you the rewards. Like I said, it's like paying 5 bucks so you can see Mario save the Princess.
P2W means you skip the grind. there is no grind in halo. P2W is stupid. I agree, but so is grinding in the first place. I'm trying to show you that there's no rational difference except one is money and the other is time. They both bypass skill.

you lose.
Quote: Originally Posted by Uber_the_Goober View Post
Bioware couldn't balance a sheet of plywood if it were laying [sic] on the ground.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aragost View Post
Make sure you take 3/3 in the "knowing how to play" box

manchusabre's Avatar


manchusabre
11.13.2012 , 06:04 PM | #105
I would pay for war hero gear. I don't have the time I did in the summer to grind out for war hero gear. Right now in level 50 pvp you need to be about full war hero to even compete much less try to win the match.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.13.2012 , 06:11 PM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
P2W means you skip the grind. there is no grind in halo. P2W is stupid. I agree, but so is grinding in the first place. I'm trying to show you that there's no rational difference except one is money and the other is time. They both bypass skill.

you lose.
<.<

If that's your point, then go ahead and make it, but your question was why is P2W bad. If you can't comprehend that some games take different skill then twitch-reactions that's fine, but P2W is still bypassing challenges in game for rewards.

Still... you don't like what's required in this game, is cool. It's not for everyone. Go play something else. Fact remains, P2W still renders games pointless, which is what you were asking about.

DarthOvertone's Avatar


DarthOvertone
11.13.2012 , 06:32 PM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by DegreesOfFreedom View Post
I think the integrity of the game is at stake if one is paying for gear instead of actually playing the game the way its meant to be played.
This may be the case for PvE where gear progression is actually relevant to content progression. However, in PvP, I don't think the integrity of the game would be impacted in a negative way at all. In the end, gear progression in SWTOR PvP is simply a matter of time spent. That's why it fits so well within the area of Convenience.

Oddly enough, it could be argued that an option of this sort would actually help the integrity of PvP in this game. Real PvPers just want good fights anyway and the current gear gap is an obstacle to these happening at times. Since many players dislike the gear grind and bemoan the gear gap, they would have an opportunity to put their money where their mouth is.

And the claim that these peeps would become instant winners because of this is absurd. Trust me, a large lot of players in this game are just bad. All the gear in the world won't help them succeed. The idea that you will Win in PvP just because you can gear up with CC is absurd. Bad players are bad and would still get smoked even in Elite War Hero Uber Jedi PWN Gear. BW will just be that much richer and we won't have to listen to the gear grind/gap excuses anymore.
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Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.13.2012 , 06:43 PM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth-Rammstein View Post
Everyone has the same amount of time huh? So the guy with a full time job has the same amount of time available as the unemployed people that can play all day?
Yes, both only get 24 hours a day. I know, science is hard. What a person chooses to do with their 24 hours a day is up to them. If the guy likes having a job because it gives him disposable income he can spend on rent, food, sex, family, friends, etc. then that is his choice. If the unemployed guy wants to spend all his time playing SWTOR he can, but he won't enjoy having disposable income he can spend on friends, sex, food, rent, sex, family, sex.

Invictusthetaru's Avatar


Invictusthetaru
11.13.2012 , 06:48 PM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
Yes, both only get 24 hours a day. I know, science is hard. What a person chooses to do with their 24 hours a day is up to them. If the guy likes having a job because it gives him disposable income he can spend on rent, food, sex, family, friends, etc. then that is his choice. If the unemployed guy wants to spend all his time playing SWTOR he can, but he won't enjoy having disposable income he can spend on friends, sex, food, rent, sex, family, sex.
Smash that is the most *** backward logic I have ever read. Time = Money. That is logic. Why do you have such an issue with people wanting to P2C. Pay to COMPETE. Nothing in this game would let players who PAY have an advantage over those who don't (if both subscribers). If anything it could make them EQUAL.

If you are skilled this will NOT matter.
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Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.13.2012 , 06:49 PM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthOvertone View Post
This may be the case for PvE where gear progression is actually relevant to content progression. However, in PvP, I don't think the integrity of the game would be impacted in a negative way at all. In the end, gear progression in SWTOR PvP is simply a matter of time spent. That's why it fits so well within the area of Convenience.

Oddly enough, it could be argued that an option of this sort would actually help the integrity of PvP in this game. Real PvPers just want good fights anyway and the current gear gap is an obstacle to these happening at times. Since many players dislike the gear grind and bemoan the gear gap, they would have an opportunity to put their money where there mouth is.

And the claim that these peeps would become instant winners because of this is absurd. Trust me, a large lot of players in this game are just bad. All the gear in the world won't help them succeed. The idea that you will Win in PvP just because you can gear up with CC is absurd. Bad players are bad and would still get smoked even in Elite War Hero Uber Jedi PWN Gear. BW will just be that much richer and we won't have to listen to the gear grind/gap excuses anymore.
Except that when you have two equally skilled teams playing, but one team has richer parents/higher income/whatever and the other team doesn't, then the team with more money gets out ahead whenever a new tier of gear comes out. They will be able to all instantly buy the brand new tier of gear, where the other equally skilled team has to grind it out. When these two equally skilled teams face off in RWZs, the better geared team wins 100% of the time.