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Debunking false ideas about Mara/Sents in PVP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Debunking false ideas about Mara/Sents in PVP

JackNader's Avatar


JackNader
11.13.2012 , 10:23 AM | #81
He was actually correct. Mercs are easily on par with marauder in terms of damage output. The point he made was that in a warzone mercs don't get to freecast like they do on op bosses and hence can't pull the same numbers.

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
11.13.2012 , 10:28 AM | #82
Quote: Originally Posted by JackNader View Post
He was actually correct. Mercs are easily on par with marauder in terms of damage output. The point he made was that in a warzone mercs don't get to freecast like they do on op bosses and hence can't pull the same numbers.
So why is he bringing up PVE situations into a PVP discussion? Because he has to stretch so hard that marauders aren't OP that he has to bring in PVE situations in order to defend his claim. It's getting pathetic.

You are losing ground here, marauders got the best defensives. Who else has god mode? You say juggs get saber ward...oh guess who else gets saber ward? Honestly the only marauders defending this class so much don't want to get there OP life style changed. There is a reason why there are so many sents/marauders in PVP, gee where are all the Op/merc dps?

Phasersablaze's Avatar


Phasersablaze
11.13.2012 , 10:30 AM | #83
Quote: Originally Posted by AsiriusNazriel View Post
TM TM TM TM TM TM TM

Yeah, it was very balanced.
So I see you are one of the marauders that I used to decimate because he didn't know what an interrupt was. FYI before 1.2 when they adjusted the barrage proc it was perfectly acceptable to cast 5 or 6 tracers in a row if nothing else was up and barrage didn't proc.

TM gave 10% damage reduction, buffed Rail Shot, Buffed HSM, and reduced my target's armor. What a stupid spell to cast huh?

learn to interrupt.

Phasersablaze's Avatar


Phasersablaze
11.13.2012 , 10:44 AM | #84
Quote: Originally Posted by TridusSWTOR View Post
So why is he bringing up PVE situations into a PVP discussion? Because he has to stretch so hard that marauders aren't OP that he has to bring in PVE situations in order to defend his claim. It's getting pathetic.

^^^ Pretty much. Do you even play PVP Arash?

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
11.13.2012 , 10:49 AM | #85
Quote: Originally Posted by TridusSWTOR View Post
So why is he bringing up PVE situations into a PVP discussion? Because he has to stretch so hard that marauders aren't OP that he has to bring in PVE situations in order to defend his claim. It's getting pathetic.

You are losing ground here, marauders got the best defensives. Who else has god mode? You say juggs get saber ward...oh guess who else gets saber ward? Honestly the only marauders defending this class so much don't want to get there OP life style changed. There is a reason why there are so many sents/marauders in PVP, gee where are all the Op/merc dps?
Firstly, God mode is for Sins and Shadows and no one else (2 abilities to basically make you immune to all damage and cc). The most OP aspect of UR is not that they simply get to live longer and maybe get a heal or two, but because they get free time to play objectively. By that I mean that they cannot be killed while it is up and it allows them to defend an objective long past the time they should have otherwise died. This also gives them a large advantage in 1v1, but warzones are not dueling arenas.

Let's be honest, maras bring one true piece of utility to the table and that is whatever ability they choose to use with 30 stacks built up (predation, berserk, depends on spec and circumstance really). They can't taunt or guard (pt, sin, jugg), they can't heal or use tons of CC(sorc, merc, op), they can only kill stuff and if you let them stay on you that's what they'll do. They are just like snipers, but far more vulnerable in melee range and so they need CDs to mitigate a lot of the damage they take.

I'm not saying they are perfectly balanced with every other class, but a majority of complaints come from mercs and sorcs (of which I have both, no 50 maras yet) who are the main targets of maras. When (if?) mercs get their boost to escapability (just like hybrid sorcs have atm), they will have far fewer problems with melee when played correctly.
The Original Aether Legacy
Erza-Jugg / Saberscythe-Mara / Atropo-Sorc
Patharos-Guardian / Kadinne-Vanguard / Aquilo-Sage
Prophecy of the Five

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
11.13.2012 , 10:54 AM | #86
Quote: Originally Posted by Phasersablaze View Post
Sorry but that doesn't refute my post at all. He basically says that he is going to make it easier for bad players to reach maximum potential. AT NO POINT does he say that he is raising or lowering the max potential of a Merc.

Basically what happened was that heat management became automatic 8 heat every 6 seconds instead of tied into venting heats when you crit. You know how much this change affected me? ZERO, because I was already skilled at heat management.

What he is talking about has nothing to do with class balance. He just made the class easier to play for baddies.

Nice try, but your argument doesn't hold water.

P.S. You can cut the "I don't know why I waste my impeccable knowledge on you" crap. That's just snobbish
I believe your post was stating that class balance can only be based on the maximum potential of the class because it is impossible to determine the "average". Seeing as they can measure how players are playing their classes and see that a majority of people are not meeting that potential, they can then make changes to improve the class without increasing the overall capability of the class. I believe this is directly related to your argument.

As I said in my earlier post, you can argue whether or not their particular changes truly assisted players and it does not change my point that the way classes are balanced is contrary to your statement. Perhaps you were not affected by the change because you were more skilled and not performing at the low end of their expectations. Perhaps since this particular question was directed towards PVE, it was not a change that was meant to affect you in PVP.

Regardless, it is proof that class balance happens at multiple levels of gameplay, not simply the ideal player skill.
The Original Aether Legacy
Erza-Jugg / Saberscythe-Mara / Atropo-Sorc
Patharos-Guardian / Kadinne-Vanguard / Aquilo-Sage
Prophecy of the Five

Phasersablaze's Avatar


Phasersablaze
11.13.2012 , 11:20 AM | #87
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
I believe your post was stating that class balance can only be based on the maximum potential of the class because it is impossible to determine the "average". Seeing as they can measure how players are playing their classes and see that a majority of people are not meeting that potential, they can then make changes to improve the class without increasing the overall capability of the class. I believe this is directly related to your argument.

As I said in my earlier post, you can argue whether or not their particular changes truly assisted players and it does not change my point that the way classes are balanced is contrary to your statement. Perhaps you were not affected by the change because you were more skilled and not performing at the low end of their expectations. Perhaps since this particular question was directed towards PVE, it was not a change that was meant to affect you in PVP.

Regardless, it is proof that class balance happens at multiple levels of gameplay, not simply the ideal player skill.
I see what you are saying, but its not quite making your point. If they were talking about increasingDecreasing a damage on an ability, lowering a cooldown, or introducing a new mechanic to the class then I would consider that balancing. All they did was make heat management easy. That really doesn't affect class balance much...it's more like a bug fix.

Now I don't claim to know exactly how Bioware determins how to balance classes, but it doesn't matter because you can never reach balance when you are using subjective factors. If they did that then class balance would become simply the devs opinion on how strong each class should be in any given area. This obviously would be a terrible way to balance classes since everyone is bias towards their personal experience in WZs and the classes they play.

cs_Kimmo's Avatar


cs_Kimmo
11.13.2012 , 11:34 AM | #88
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
Ironically Marauders can be called relatively balanced on high levels of play.

They suffer from the Retribution Paladin syndrome that plagued WoW from Vanilla. This class\spec had relatively simple ways of doing heavy frontloaded damage, had a 6 second stun on a fairly accessible cooldown, and cooldowns that provided immunity to movement-imparing effects, they had a 12-sec full immunity shield, and they had the ability to heal themselves.

Even the dumbest, most talentless RetNoob had a very good chance against the "lowest common denominator" player of another class. But it could easily be disassembled by a player who knows what they're doing. Marauder cooldowns do constitute a similar "foolproof". The difference is, however, that to learn to fight RetPaladin, you didn't need a lot of effort. With a Marauder, however, the best way is to play it yourself.
This.

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
11.13.2012 , 11:50 AM | #89
Quote: Originally Posted by Phasersablaze View Post
I see what you are saying, but its not quite making your point. If they were talking about increasingDecreasing a damage on an ability, lowering a cooldown, or introducing a new mechanic to the class then I would consider that balancing. All they did was make heat management easy. That really doesn't affect class balance much...it's more like a bug fix.

Now I don't claim to know exactly how Bioware determins how to balance classes, but it doesn't matter because you can never reach balance when you are using subjective factors. If they did that then class balance would become simply the devs opinion on how strong each class should be in any given area. This obviously would be a terrible way to balance classes since everyone is bias towards their personal experience in WZs and the classes they play.
I will respectfully disagree on this point as well. Numbers can help with balancing things like the damage an ability can do or even how much damage a player takes within a warzone. This type of data can be collected and investigated to determine if an ability needs to be tweaked or a DCD may need to be given to a class taking a lot of damage (why mara/sent ended up with so many). It cannot, however, take utility into account or the ability to shut down classes through tactics or the ability to control the battlefield with CC and that is why subjectivity must be used. There is no damage meter on how effective sorc CC abilities are or how effective classes become when used together (currently 3-4 smash specs on one team). Does the fact that Rage Juggs have push which resets leap, debuff to armor, lower CD on biggest rage building attack and taunts/guard enough to justify not having CoP, UR, and Force Camo? I think they could use a little more survivability compared to their mara counterparts, but that is where subjectivity comes in.

This is where the theorycrafting and debating side of class balance comes in and why everyone feels their class is balanced while another one is OP. Most people look at mara/sent and see the damage they can do and how effective they are 1v1, but never step back to notice that leap can't be used on command and needs to be saved for AFTER the fight starts, not to initiate battle. People underestimate the capabilities of a 4 second hard stun that allows them to get in multiple attacks while their opponent can do nothing.

I won't claim to know everything about every class and I certainly won't claim that every class is on equal footing at this time, but there is a widely held belief that mara/sent needs to be nerfed because of what it can do without anyone looking at what it can't do or how broken it would be with many of the changes offered. I was always an advocate for bringing mara/sent back in line, but have found that I have the tools to combat them now that I know what they are capable of and they truly aren't as strong as many believe.
The Original Aether Legacy
Erza-Jugg / Saberscythe-Mara / Atropo-Sorc
Patharos-Guardian / Kadinne-Vanguard / Aquilo-Sage
Prophecy of the Five

Mcnoober's Avatar


Mcnoober
11.13.2012 , 11:51 AM | #90
Every class has the potental to be "OP" ive done it with my Gaurdian my Vangaurd and my Comando. I adverage 6 solo kills a game with all 3 classes and usualy top 3 medalists. People just should stop QQ bout certain classes being OP cause anyone can be "OP" if u know your class and play it right. Currently there is only 1 mara tht can solo me 50% of the time and shes a good friends and its always a good fight. They rest of the time my vangaurd has no issues with them. Its all about useing every single ability u can and its ALL situational. When to use this and when 2 use tht kinda stuff. So my advice is to really learn your favorite class and become tht "OP" class.