Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Enough of exploiting ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Enough of exploiting ranked warzones

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.14.2012 , 09:01 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
even when we disagree, I find much of value in your replies. this, however, misses the major issue. while it's true that nobody wants to get stomped over and over again, so on and so forth, the fact of the matter is that ranked is the only way in which you can control team composition (i.e., all 8 players on the team). thus, it's the only possible way of manufacturing relatively even (i.e., competitive) matches. If you draft two teams from a 16 player pool, it doesn't matter if they're fully optimized, uber skilled or the opposite. you can still create a competitive match. you cannot do that in regular queues, and you certainly cannot do that in rated (at least not on my server). so unless you want a crapshoot (I'd say 1 in 10 in my experience) at landing in a competitive (close) WZ, then this is how you do it. as for the lone team that sits in queue all night and rofl stomps anyone who faces them, well..."frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."

************ about this is no different than ************ about premades, so I do hope those who mock the logic of the premade QQ aren't also the ones backing this QQ. or at least acknowledge the hypocrisy of it.
=P I actually wrote that on about 3 hours of sleep, so maybe I wasn't clear but:

I would put it this way... using Ranked Wz's like this is an exploit of the system. The system is intended for an 8 man team to face another random premade 8 man team. As it's ranked, it has rating attached, as well as a ranked comms as a reward. Purposefully avoiding other teams to face a specific other team is an exploit. Not that I can entirely blame people for using it, the system itself is just bad.

Likewise, a purposeful double premade in normal is an exploit. I like premades, I think everyone should group up if they can, but the system is designed to only allow 4 people in the queue. If you are purposefully getting a double premade in normal, it's an exploit of the system. Once again... can't really blame them though, the system is bad.

Where I took issue, and maybe I'm just crazy (<.< I don't see dead people, thanfully), is when people blame the team who isn't exploiting, and simply trying to play properly (and well it seems) for the reason why people choose to exploit. "PuG's are bad" isn't a good excuse to try and double premade, and "You're too good" is a poor excuse for abusing the ranked system.

/endrant =P

Cryptiic's Avatar


Cryptiic
11.14.2012 , 10:25 AM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Zoiks View Post
Wow, what the heck is this? The entire point of a ranked war zones is to compete against the best of the best...

Saying meh, we're going to lose anyway so lets leave this queue and start another with our guildies isn't competing. It's giving up, and those people have no right to even be allowed into ranked games in my opinion. They need to add an hour+ long deserter buff to people who leave a triggered rwz queue.

If you can't take losing, don't compete. Go back to the regular queue and dominate fail pugs all day so you can try and feel better about losing.
Bahahahaha that is such an elitist comment. Dude when you have 5 of the 8 guys on your team trying to get geared for ranked WZs going against the best is not "going against the best" it's feeding the already fat lions yet another serving of meat. F that! My job as PVP lead is to get my guys geared so we can have a "REAL" match against the best. So until then QQ and be patient. We'll get geared soon enough then we'll really have fun. Until there is some sort of ranking system and cross server que you'll see this happen all the time. And if BW doesn't add these features you'll be standing around anyway because nobody will be PVPing.

Theodulus's Avatar


Theodulus
11.14.2012 , 10:36 AM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Difference with what my guild does:

We form one team and queue. If nothing pops, we form 2 teams with a few friends and play (if able, sometimes it's buggy or we don't have 8 other people to add to our 8)

If another team enters the queue, we fight them. If they're good, we remove the 8 friends and form our orginal ranked team.

We do not enter ranked and then leave/avoid another team so our two teams can farm each other.
Whatever makes you sleep at night. I'd say it's still win trading since the other team mates will eventually bail out if you don't keep the matches fair (according to an earlier post by you). What you are doing shouldn't be rewarded since it's a gray area and you are probably using the system in a way it isn't actually intended. I guess we need some official BW feedback on that one. If it's allowed they could just allow training matches without rewards where you can pick your opponents.

Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
<.< Should probably comprehend something before pointing fingers. Your point about football has nothing to do with ranked, it more applies to normal wz's (which are a community playground really. You have no control over who uses it.)
Learn to read. I did say that perhaps you could say that RWZ=Premier league. Let me do some math. In Sweden we have around 260k licensed football players. The highest league consists of 16 clubs. Every team fields 11 players plus 3-7 replacements. That means around 300 people are competent enough to compete in the highest league. That means out of the total population of licensed football players only 0.1% fit in with the absolutely best.

Now if you assume that the same percentage in this game is that good at PvP we have a problem. I heard estimates that there are about 30k players on my PvP server. That means around 30 people or 3.75 teams can actually compete on the highest level on the server (checking my server forums there are currently 5 teams trying to queue for RWZ every night so I guess it's a pretty good estimate). It's not strange that RWZ is devoid of life when you just don't have the population to support that high level play. That means that the chances are high that the a new team trying out RWZ will face a team way out of their league. When that happens they drop down to a league they can compete in.

My point being is that we need x-server queues and proper matchmaking. I don't know how starcraft does it but I doubt a person at the bottom of the ranking will meet the number 1 in a ranked match no matter how long the queue times are. I don't think that player will learn much by facing the number 1 except how to lose very fast.

My point being is that RWZ will continue to be the same faces

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
11.14.2012 , 10:37 AM | #44
two teams that want to play each other on a dead queue (except for the one elite grp) changes nothing. the elite team would be in queue against thin air either way. I suppose you could call it an exploit, except declining a queue counts as a loss, which direclty affects one's rating. so if they're arranging matches while a 3rd team is in the queue, then they either A) aren't doing it to bolster their rating, or B) are doing it to inflate their rating and have no clue how ratings work.

rated, at least on my server, is no longer the place for the elite to test themselves. the elite either moved on or joined the one guild that constantly sits in queue. the system is broken. no matter how bad one team is, they're GOING TO END UP AGAINST THE ONE ELITE TEAM IN QUEUE, and they're going to end up against them 90% of the time. matching in a rated system is designed to produce balanced matches, isn't it? I thought it was. if you need to exploit the system to do it, then I say so be it.

my last rated adventure was a couple days ago. it was mostly my guild + 3 pugs. it took about an hour to put the team together. another pug from a lesser guild also entered the queue. it was CW. we wrecked them. it wasn't a contest. our gm was bored to tears. it wasn't fun. we felt sorry for the other pug and (most of us) left their node alone.

the one elite guild got wind that someone was in q and put a team together. the other pug stopped Queueing. we met the elite guild in hb, and they wrecked us. *shrug* we decided that we could tolerate one more *** whupping before giving up on rated. so we went into NC and it took the other guys a while to cap south, but there was no moving them off a node once they had it, so that was that. 100-0. nobody else is in queue. fighting the other guild is futile. ok. great. well...rated queues are over and done with again. So that's 60 minutes of organization for ~30m of action, 23m of which were completely lopsided.

if the goal is to have fun - and that is my goal - then it's more than just winning. rofl stomping the pug wasn't fun. getting pwned by the other guild isnt't fun. drafting two teams to play each other is fun. it's only bad for the rating whore who can't farm rating on ppl that have no business playing him in the first place. until the system is miraculously fixed - I doubt it ever will or can be at this point - I think manufacturing 8v8s is the way to go.

btw: this wasn't always the case. the state of rated has changed on my server. it used to be just the opposite and ppl actively dodged certain guilds to inflate their rating. I don't think that's the case anymore. frankly, what's-her-face doesn't play anymore, and all the remaining good players from her guild are in the top guild now anyway. the top imp guilds went away. it's not elite's dodging elites to inflate their ratings anymore.
meh
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TL;DR Bolster is meant to help entry level players, ranked PvP is not entry level PvP.

Cryptiic's Avatar


Cryptiic
11.14.2012 , 10:50 AM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by criminalheretic View Post
Thats the price of being awesome man. If the New England Patriots kept going to the local park to play pick up games with HS kids, eventually they would show up to an empty park.

You can make the game more enjoyable for your opponents without throwing the game, if your pride demands you 3-cap, then their self-interest demands they avoid you. Maybe that's something to think about as a guild. If you are so good that winning is a foregone conclusion, maybe you are good enough to control the pace and flow of the game in it's entirety. Should you "have" to? Probably not. But people definitely do not "have" to play against you if they don't want to.
Well said Crim.

Dartmoose's Avatar


Dartmoose
11.14.2012 , 12:45 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
two teams that want to play each other on a dead queue (except for the one elite grp) changes nothing. the elite team would be in queue against thin air either way. I suppose you could call it an exploit, except declining a queue counts as a loss, which direclty affects one's rating. so if they're arranging matches while a 3rd team is in the queue, then they either A) aren't doing it to bolster their rating, or B) are doing it to inflate their rating and have no clue how ratings work.

rated, at least on my server, is no longer the place for the elite to test themselves. the elite either moved on or joined the one guild that constantly sits in queue. the system is broken. no matter how bad one team is, they're GOING TO END UP AGAINST THE ONE ELITE TEAM IN QUEUE, and they're going to end up against them 90% of the time. matching in a rated system is designed to produce balanced matches, isn't it? I thought it was. if you need to exploit the system to do it, then I say so be it.

my last rated adventure was a couple days ago. it was mostly my guild + 3 pugs. it took about an hour to put the team together. another pug from a lesser guild also entered the queue. it was CW. we wrecked them. it wasn't a contest. our gm was bored to tears. it wasn't fun. we felt sorry for the other pug and (most of us) left their node alone.

the one elite guild got wind that someone was in q and put a team together. the other pug stopped Queueing. we met the elite guild in hb, and they wrecked us. *shrug* we decided that we could tolerate one more *** whupping before giving up on rated. so we went into NC and it took the other guys a while to cap south, but there was no moving them off a node once they had it, so that was that. 100-0. nobody else is in queue. fighting the other guild is futile. ok. great. well...rated queues are over and done with again. So that's 60 minutes of organization for ~30m of action, 23m of which were completely lopsided.

if the goal is to have fun - and that is my goal - then it's more than just winning. rofl stomping the pug wasn't fun. getting pwned by the other guild isnt't fun. drafting two teams to play each other is fun. it's only bad for the rating whore who can't farm rating on ppl that have no business playing him in the first place. until the system is miraculously fixed - I doubt it ever will or can be at this point - I think manufacturing 8v8s is the way to go.

btw: this wasn't always the case. the state of rated has changed on my server. it used to be just the opposite and ppl actively dodged certain guilds to inflate their rating. I don't think that's the case anymore. frankly, what's-her-face doesn't play anymore, and all the remaining good players from her guild are in the top guild now anyway. the top imp guilds went away. it's not elite's dodging elites to inflate their ratings anymore.
i agree with your post. balanced teams are honestly the only way to make rwz fun and productive. otherwise, it takes far too much effort for little reward (and i hate putting up with the trolling they do). i kinda miss that other guild... no one is left to call out ld50

wouldnt be a bad idea if we coordinated these rated wz with you

Jacksyn's Avatar


Jacksyn
11.14.2012 , 12:54 PM | #47
This was an issue on my server, The Harbinger, about 2 months ago. A guild was creating 2 teams and queuing ranked, then would drop out if they faced a team other than their own.

I can defend creating 2 ranked teams to farm comms. I have no problem with that. I can defend a ranked team being ticked off for having to sit through a full war zone because the other team bravely ran away.

But I canít defend fleeing a war zone so that you donít face tough opposition. I canít fathom how anyone else can either. I donít leave any war zone, much less a ranked one even when we have a disconnect.

On the other hand, I donít know the OP or how they behave in their war zones, but I will say that when top PvP teams behave poorly, it absolutely is going to affect how other teams treat you. Are you 3-capping and then spawn-camping? Are you spam laughing? Do you score slowly to run up damage and healing numbers in Huttball? Do you act like jerks on your server forum? These are things people react to. In these cases, the way you behave brings about how they behave. I donít condone what they might be doing, but in those cases I would understand.

If people donít want to play you, it might not be because you are awesome players. It might be because you are terrible people.

As always, the answer to this problem can be solved by Bioware. Cross-server queues for both ranked and unranked PvP will make this argument moot. People are trying to form PUGs every night on my server to get ranked matches.
Jaksyn, Jaklinn, Jaksynn, Jaklynn, Jakyle, Jakobbe, Jakor, Jakay
Jakcyn, Grimnor, Jaklen, Jaklene, Jakbrak, Jakleen, Jaksinn, Jaklenn

<Top Gun> The Harbinger

stringcat's Avatar


stringcat
11.14.2012 , 01:05 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by MagicmanNC View Post
The fact that a common suggestion seems to be for these good teams to somehow "gimp" themselves for RWZs is mind-boggling.
They don't have to "gimp" themselves. But no one has to play against them, either.

If they're unhappy to hang out in empty warzones, well, the onus is really on them, because they are the ones crying about the status quo. That's how the real world works. Other players aren't going to suddenly discover a desire to be repeatedly stomped without a fighting chance.
Valiya Illegal Test Kitchen The Bastion

NamikazeNaruto's Avatar


NamikazeNaruto
11.14.2012 , 02:14 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by Jacksyn View Post
This was an issue on my server, The Harbinger, about 2 months ago. A guild was creating 2 teams and queuing ranked, then would drop out if they faced a team other than their own.

I can defend creating 2 ranked teams to farm comms. I have no problem with that. I can defend a ranked team being ticked off for having to sit through a full war zone because the other team bravely ran away.

But I canít defend fleeing a war zone so that you donít face tough opposition. I canít fathom how anyone else can either. I donít leave any war zone, much less a ranked one even when we have a disconnect.

On the other hand, I donít know the OP or how they behave in their war zones, but I will say that when top PvP teams behave poorly, it absolutely is going to affect how other teams treat you. Are you 3-capping and then spawn-camping? Are you spam laughing? Do you score slowly to run up damage and healing numbers in Huttball? Do you act like jerks on your server forum? These are things people react to. In these cases, the way you behave brings about how they behave. I donít condone what they might be doing, but in those cases I would understand.

If people donít want to play you, it might not be because you are awesome players. It might be because you are terrible people.

As always, the answer to this problem can be solved by Bioware. Cross-server queues for both ranked and unranked PvP will make this argument moot. People are trying to form PUGs every night on my server to get ranked matches.
Well most of don't smack talk after the game, though I'm not going to say that is always the case. I will say though that we usually 3 cap in games if possible. I don't think we're doing it to be rude, we just like to play at our best and get the games over with as fast as possible so we can move on to the next game. Though maybe others from the server see it differently.

Dartmoose's Avatar


Dartmoose
11.14.2012 , 02:19 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by NamikazeNaruto View Post
Well most of don't smack talk after the game, though I'm not going to say that is always the case. I will say though that we usually 3 cap in games if possible. I don't think we're doing it to be rude, we just like to play at our best and get the games over with as fast as possible so we can move on to the next game. Though maybe others from the server see it differently.
i've seen smack talk in game, after the game, in whisper form, and on server forums. and certain key members are worse than others (look at acorns). thats enough for me.