Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

50 PvP - Different Queue For Casual Players?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
50 PvP - Different Queue For Casual Players?

arunav's Avatar


arunav
11.01.2012 , 07:05 PM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
As it is, it's easier than ever now to complete the gear grind. (MK2 recruit even comes with BM Relics. >.< I remember having to get champion relics and that bag random drop system.) It's easy for an alt to be competitive straight out the gate, and even well geared.

First there is MK2 recruit, not great, but it's free.

Then you have the ability to save 2000 regular and 3500 ranked comms starting at level 40 (And 10 levels is plenty of time). WH weapon and offhand is only 2000k ranked, so you can buy 1, if not both of your main weapons (Both leaves you with 500 normal comms left.)

Aletrnatively, you can send gear over to your alts via legacy gear. THe Bind on Legacy gear is only credits at the Legacy vendor, and since you're already in WH on your main (presumably, if the arguement is not wanting to go through the gear grind/gap "again). With Legacy gear, your fresh 50 can have WH Helmet, Chest, Legs, Hands, Feet, Belt, Bracers, Main-hand, Off-hand. Of course, that depends on how much work you want to put in on your main, but it is still -possible- to do the "grind" without the "gear gap."

With all that, your 2000/3500 comms can now be spent on the only Non-WH pieces. About 200/1500 for any given piece. (1 ear, 2 implants, 2 relics). With BM relics, you can easily get both implants, and then your first daily/weekly should cover the ear piece. There ya go, fresh 50, with preparation, in nearly full WH and weighing in at 1200+ expertise.

So if you want a queue for casual, that's one argument. Trying to justify it with "Do you want to do the gear gap/grind on multiple toons" to serious pvp'ers really doesn't hold water.
The steps you've outlined above I think would apply to "serious pvp'ers." Most people who queue for 50 PvP are not this serious.

It's a barrier to having fun in what otherwise would be enjoyable WZs at 50. A poster above also pointed out the many fully geared players who should be playing ranked but queue in premade groups in the regular queue, making them often awful for more casual players.

I agree you don't need BiS augmented War Hero if you do not play ranked matches. But you do need a good bit of gear grinding to be on a relatively even playing field at 50. Especially for alternate characters, the current setup is far from ideal and drives players away from the game.

This isn't good for either casual or serious PvP'ers.

UberDuberSoldat's Avatar


UberDuberSoldat
11.01.2012 , 07:13 PM | #12
just delete this thread plz. use search function.

short answer to your question: NO

long answer to your question: L2P

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.01.2012 , 07:13 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by arunav View Post
The steps you've outlined above I think would apply to "serious pvp'ers." Most people who queue for 50 PvP are not this serious.

It's a barrier to having fun in what otherwise would be enjoyable WZs at 50. A poster above also pointed out the many fully geared players who should be playing ranked but queue in premade groups in the regular queue, making them often awful for more casual players.

I agree you don't need BiS augmented War Hero if you do not play ranked matches. But you do need a good bit of gear grinding to be on a relatively even playing field at 50. Especially for alternate characters, the current setup is far from ideal and drives players away from the game.

This isn't good for either casual or serious PvP'ers.
I was merely pointing out that citing gear grind/gear gap for alts as a justification for a casual queue isn't a good argument. Anyone who actually cares about gearing alts would have them well geared before they even hit 50 (I'm working on making my Op's WH set, and she's Lvl 20.)

As for your actual suggestion, I'd repeat what I've said before in other threads. PvP player pools can not handle a split queue. Get cross server queue, and this might be possible. However... casual pvp has no stick and carrot. It has no goal, and risks losing players to boredom. In my perfect game, there wouldn't be a gear grind/gap, but that is not reality and sadly, that is not how this game will work. It's already too far gone into the PvP gear for it to change, without losing many, many players.

arunav's Avatar


arunav
11.01.2012 , 07:14 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by jonmcooper View Post
Agree with this 100%. Skill>Gear.

My full recruit guardian is top 1-3 damage every match. I regularly beat full WH min/maxed, auged players with it and my BM vangaurd. Not trying to brag, just giving some perspective.

Problem is, most people with recruit/BM gear are bad casuals and don't know their class. Then they see the ****-tons of posts here about a so called "huge gear gap" and blame their shortcomings on that. Then all the lemmings follow suit, and soon they end up trashing the devs and calling "hax".

The few good players stay mostly silent and end up either on the top rated temas or quitting the game becuase of all the bads and devs catering to casuals.

Learn the other classes. Learn to time your stuns. Learn to Communicate. Learn to move/zig-zag/whatever while going through your optimal rotations and stuns. Learn to call incs and play objectives.

I can assure you that if any of these people crying about a "huge gear gap" dueled me while I am in full recruit, I would wreck them.
I don't doubt you'd wreck them. But you wouldn't be the average SWTOR player then, no?

SWTOR has a gear is more important than skill system in place at 50 for most players. And it deters them from sticking with the game, which I think is a problem, as WZs are some of the best re-playable content at endgame.

This isn't a L2P issue, or a vocal minority expressing themselves. Quite the opposite, a few players do alright with poor gear, but many more unskilled players do really well with good gear.

Especially given the time necessarily to acquire said gear, it's a poorly designed system, especially in a game that focuses on playing alts.

arunav's Avatar


arunav
11.01.2012 , 07:57 PM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
As for your actual suggestion, I'd repeat what I've said before in other threads. PvP player pools can not handle a split queue. Get cross server queue, and this might be possible. However... casual pvp has no stick and carrot. It has no goal, and risks losing players to boredom. In my perfect game, there wouldn't be a gear grind/gap, but that is not reality and sadly, that is not how this game will work. It's already too far gone into the PvP gear for it to change, without losing many, many players.
Perhaps you are right and an MMO doesn't work without carrots, as players are too used to chasing them. But I think SWTOR WZs are just fun to play on their own. You don't need any other reason to join them.

That and there are those who prefer lightsabers and "pew pew" to all the fake-Tolkien nonsense found in most MMOs. I'd keep my subscription going to play WZs at 50 without the hassle of gearing, while occasionally leveling and experiencing more class stories.

For folks who enjoy progression, implement a separate bracket where expertise is active.

There are far more casual players that would prefer this, I'd bet, than those that enjoy the grind in the current 50 system.

Maybe BW will come up with something once cross-server is active.

Eszi's Avatar


Eszi
11.01.2012 , 08:25 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by arunav View Post
I don't doubt you'd wreck them. But you wouldn't be the average SWTOR player then, no?

SWTOR has a gear is more important than skill system in place at 50 for most players. And it deters them from sticking with the game, which I think is a problem, as WZs are some of the best re-playable content at endgame.

This isn't a L2P issue, or a vocal minority expressing themselves. Quite the opposite, a few players do alright with poor gear, but many more unskilled players do really well with good gear.

Especially given the time necessarily to acquire said gear, it's a poorly designed system, especially in a game that focuses on playing alts.
You're derailing his post while proving his point valid.
First, you say that it is possible for a skilled person to win a 1v1 despite the "huge gear gap", i.e. you admit it's a l2p issue.
But right after that you say that gear is more important than skill.
Average player? Yes, the average player in this game is a massive noob, and we all know that's true. BUT if skill can beat gear (which you also agree with) then it's fine as it is.
Your skill is your problem, not developer's. You shouldn't expect free stuff, just because you can't play properly. This IS a l2p issue.
Instead of crying about gear advantage start reading some guides (most are bad though, but well, it's a starting point), when you die don't yell at your monitor or ask for things that you won't get on the forums, but evaluate your mistakes, think what you could had done better.
In a long run, this will be MUCH better for you, otherwise you will get the gear, still find yourself being facerolled and probaly open a generic cheater thread with no proof #4698464564654487154654

DarthRaika's Avatar


DarthRaika
11.01.2012 , 08:26 PM | #17
The problems with this game's pvp are several fold.

1. optimization adding huge leap in gear without being obviously different and requires a very long grind

2. 8v8 with 4 man (50%)premades allowed and no premade matching whatsoever. Sync q'n is pretty easy also btw. The current system could have 5 premades on both sides q'n up constantly over an hour period and still most of them will fight pugs instead of eachother. Also, even 2man geared groups are 25% of a team

3. very low softcap to skill. Skilled players of equal gear will still overcome semiskilled in teamplay because it isn't a hard cap but if you have gear and are mediocre you can still reach the softcap. Also the skill is greatly lowered when you are in a premade since

4. Certain group comps being far better than others. This would be great if there was premade matching but there is not.

5. Crazy defensive cds.

6. Popularity of war type classes (Jug,Mar,Ptech,Tankasin)

7. a few others but i'm tired lol.

You put these together and the game has gathered a rather large following of mediocre players who gear up a char fully, form proper composition premades and stomp pugs. For various reasons they enjoy this and they will oppose any change to this. They will claim you need to make friends, l2p, etc. but that is not the real reason they want the system to stay as is.

There are some good ideas out there (Ugly's Only recruit gear wz's) mine (1. premade matching, 2. cross server, Mixed faction teams when needed) and several others but they will never be popular on these forums.

arunav's Avatar


arunav
11.01.2012 , 09:16 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Eszi View Post
You're derailing his post while proving his point valid.
First, you say that it is possible for a skilled person to win a 1v1 despite the "huge gear gap", i.e. you admit it's a l2p issue.
But right after that you say that gear is more important than skill.
Average player? Yes, the average player in this game is a massive noob, and we all know that's true. BUT if skill can beat gear (which you also agree with) then it's fine as it is.
Your skill is your problem, not developer's. You shouldn't expect free stuff, just because you can't play properly. This IS a l2p issue.
Instead of crying about gear advantage start reading some guides (most are bad though, but well, it's a starting point), when you die don't yell at your monitor or ask for things that you won't get on the forums, but evaluate your mistakes, think what you could had done better.
In a long run, this will be MUCH better for you, otherwise you will get the gear, still find yourself being facerolled and probaly open a generic cheater thread with no proof #4698464564654487154654
No.

I stated, if he is correct, that his PvP ability is by far the exception to the norm.

And that is accepting someone on a forum claiming they can take out players in the best gear with recruit gear. 1 vs. 1, if classes are matched properly, I'd bet he's far from correct in his self-assessment. I gave him the benefit of the doubt out of politeness.

The point you and others are missing is what I stated earlier, this is not a L2P issue. There are far more unskilled players who grind out augmented War Hero than skilled players with it, and the former are able to beat many players only due to their gear. This encourages a barrier to entry for casual players in 50 WZs, as there is a steep gear gap in place.

For a game that focuses on alts as heavily as SWTOR, the length of the gear grind for 50 PvP, and the difference this gear makes, is not healthy for the PvP population. It offers more frustration than fun for too long, unless one doesn't have a real life and plays SWTOR all day.

For example, a poster mentioned it took since 1.2 until relatively recently to get a fully augmented War Hero set as a casual player.

For the record, I kick *** with my Shadow in 50 WZs, without BiS gear. It took quite a while to get a War Hero set, however.

After recently leveling a Guardian, I realized I enjoy the style of play much better than that of a Shadow. It was a blast leveling, and a complete letdown at 50. Who wants to grind out PvP gear for months on end, character after character?

It's simply a poor system if the intention is to keep players aboard, having a good time.

Pvtcarnage's Avatar


Pvtcarnage
11.02.2012 , 04:06 PM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by arunav View Post
There are many folks who enjoy the WZs in SWTOR but lose interest when they reach 50. On an alt, for example, because of the tremendous gear grind involved to be on an even playing field, it can be frustrating.

I leveled to 50 on a alt monday and by thursday I had 4WH and 4 BM. It's not as hard as you make it to be. Just get friends and run ranked.

Would it be possible to implement a more casual PvP queue at 50?

For example, one that does not use expertise and has a function to bring various PVE tier gears to approximately the same level, as leveling PvP is done?

Don't think premade grievers will que here and give you the same result? Gear or not, good players will come to slaughter the "casuals"

The 10-49 experience is so much fun, because there isn't a terrible gear gap to overcome. In order to be even remotely competitive at 50 right now, you need to get full Battlemaster and augment everything, only to have the need to get War Hero and put it into gear you'd actually want to wear (for many classes) and augment this gear. Then comes optimizing War Hero mods and enhancements because the stats are often off, though this isn't necessary to play well.

You have to do the same in PvE in order to advance, do you want FP's and the like to be "normalized too?

Who has fun doing this on more than one character?!! Or even one character if the point is to enter a WZ and have a good time competing with other players and winning matches? It takes weeks and, for some, even months of frustrating play to even have a chance at what was available instantly in 10-49.

I have fun


Another option would be to have a toggle to stop gaining experience while leveling, up to a certainly level (say, before daily missions are available and you can acquire 50 purple gear). This way, you could play 10-49 PvP for as long as you'd like.

LOL, you trolling us? You don't like the gear "advantage" in 50's so you want to create the same in lowbie with twink 49's rolling lvl 10's? Think stuff out much?

I'm new to the PvP forums, so please don't flame this post. I believe it's a legitimate topic for discussion, as the current gear gap is very large between a new recruit and an augmented, optimized War Hero-geared player. It simply isn't fun to progress through more than once, if that

If you play alone and pug it the whole time in TEAM oriented PvP in a MMO game and expect to play like a single player game you may be disapointed. But no fear GW2 has what your looking for. .
More info on what your looking for here
"Equality is a perversion of the natural order!…It binds the strong to the weak. They [the weak] become anchors that drag the exceptional down to mediocrity. Individuals destined and deserving of greatness have it denied them.
-Darth Bane

Digzo's Avatar


Digzo
11.02.2012 , 05:28 PM | #20
The only way I could feasibly see this happening without all the tables getting flipped over is if they halved the commendations you get from this "casual" queue, or removed them altogether. The latter would be more preferable. In the end you'd still have the gear discrepancy, except this time it'd be the PvE'ers as well as the PvP'ers running around curbstomping everyone, then they'd have to rebalance everything after taking expertise out of the equation and it would be a huge, gigantic mess.

So no, it probably will not happen.

You can get as many classes to level 50 as you want but as the game gets bigger you'll eventually have to decide which of your 8.5 million characters you really want to play past that point.