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[Guide] Sentinel PvP


Nyliana's Avatar


Nyliana
01.06.2012 , 09:29 AM | #121
Aside from a typo or two I thought it was a great read. Gives the new PVP'er a great starting point.

Thanks for the post.
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Talanthas's Avatar


Talanthas
01.06.2012 , 11:15 AM | #122
I'm not sure why, and maybe i'm wrong, but it seems like when talking about combat that Blade Rush was not discussed all that much. I started off with combat and changed to watchman at 40. I recently went back to combat now that I'm 50 and have a bit of gear and I'm really liking it.

Basically I found that Blade Rush replaced slash. I had them both on my bar and saw that they did the same amount of damage base, but Blade Rush gives you the extra Ataru strike for a bit more damage. Maybe I'm wrong and open to criticism, but generlly I'll leap in, zealous strike, blade storm and then mainly use Blade Rush until Storm is off CD. I find this works pretty well and I do good damage with this. Just curious why I didn't see more about Blade Rush when talking about combat.

Spideyknight's Avatar


Spideyknight
01.06.2012 , 01:05 PM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Let's start from the top:

1. A focus guardian uses Shi Cho for 80%+ of their playtime. Taunts and AOE taunts are not restricted to stance. Whoring medals from Guard takes all of 2 minutes out of a 10+ minute Warzone. Try again.

2. Good players switch stances as it is relevant. If you want to know how a Guardian farms 12 medals and 280k damage, they typically start in Soresu with guard whoring on an acid pit, then swap to Shii Cho / Shien for the rest of the match. They cycle taunts and AOE taunts on cooldown in both stances.

3. You can't farm hardcore medals when you're not winning.

4. Pretty sure it's impossible for Guardians to have "greater AOE" when Sentinels have a 1 Rage cost Cyclone spammable, and Rebuke does multitarget damage. Buy a clue?

5. Sentinels have a chance to do more damage with Zealous Leap (and Strike, and Slash). Guardians get 6% more damage on those abilities. Generally speaking, neither has a significant single target DPS advantage.

6. The OGCD focus pump lets them unload 100% at the start. This is not hugely relevant from the discussion, since Zealous Strike is only 1 GCD away. Not sure why you brought this up in response to my post.

7. Guardian's range attack applies 2 stacks of sunder in a Focus spec. Also, their Sundering Strike will build 2 stacks. So by "20 seconds" you really mean 4.5-6.0 seconds if they put their mind to it.
I was tempted to not even dignify your original ad hominem filled ignorant rage post with a response. Now that it's been cleaned up I'll be terse and just say you are talking about a completely different build than the one I referenced. A shi cho build is fine, you are more prone to getting squished. But if you have a healer or something keeping you alive then go hog wild. The build I refrenced is a hard hitting tank. That's the difference. It is more self sufficient. You don't need a healer you can go find one, but anyone will do. You have the power to protect them and dispatch your foes. You are also harder to kill since you stay in soresu.

Cyclone slash in pvp? Amusing. The goal of the build is to get everyone panicking and then dispatch someone. Not sweep and then turn your next ten gcds into cyclone spam. Get real.

I mentioned enrage because you said it was six focus I corrected you and said in a focus build it would be eight. Far enough about saber throw though. I neglected that.

Try to contain the rage though. It doesn't help your side of the conversation. It just makes you look foolish when all the facts hit the table.

EasymodeX's Avatar


EasymodeX
01.06.2012 , 02:33 PM | #124
Quote:
I was tempted to not even dignify your original ad hominem filled ignorant rage post with a response. Now that it's been cleaned up I'll be terse and just say you are talking about a completely different build than the one I referenced. [...]

Cyclone slash in pvp? Amusing. The goal of the build is to get everyone panicking and then dispatch someone. Not sweep and then turn your next ten gcds into cyclone spam. Get real.

Let's try this again, although I suppose it would be more efficient to go back and start with the original comments.

General context:

You said: So I've done some thinking and I retract my previous statement about guardian being the better focus spec.

Discussion: This means the context is a Focus spec. If you meant hybrid spec, you should have specified a hybrid spec. Because 99% of Focus spec players are going to have 31+ points into the Focus tree, because it's the Focus spec.

Note: I'm not sure how you're going to compare a "Guardian hybrid spec" with a "Sentinel hybrid spec", since Sentinels do not have a tank tree. Thus, the only remaining option is that when you referenced a "FOCUS SPEC COMPARISON", you actually meant a comparison between "FOCUS SPECS".


Topic 1:

You said: 1) Guardians sweep will only hit 22% harder. They are in soresu. We are in shi cho.

I said: Guardians will be in ShiiCho. Guardians will hit 30/200 = 15% harder with Force Sweep.

You said: Incorrect. Almost all of it. Look at the "guardian hits for 6k aoe with one ability" thread.

Discussion: It is not incorrect. Guardians will be packing ShiiCho to do damage in a Focus spec. If you want to talk about a hybrid defense spec where there's a reasonable point to running Soresu for more than a tactical option, then you should have said so. Furthermore, using Soresu some of the time is irrelevant to the mathematical fact that 30/200 = 15% harder, not 22% harder or 30% harder. If you want to factor ShiiCho specific damage bonuses, then it's 30/203 = 14.8% harder.

Note: Even in a hybrid spec, the above would still be true.


Topic 2:

You said: 2) As an ancillary point to the above we hit harder on literally every other move than a focus guardian does. All of them. Particularly since we have +20 armor mitigation passively. Takes them twenty seconds to get that much armor pen.

I said: Incorrect: a Guardian will hit equally hard with Blade Storm and with Exhaust. They will also have an armor debuff focus builder.

Discussion: A Guardian in a Focus spec (a spec with 31+ Focus, where you spec for Focus stuff, e.g. not a hybrid spec, since we were discussing Guard Focus versus Sent Focus) will have the same 20% armor penetration in ShiiCho, and will hit equally as hard on every other significant ability except for: Smash (discussed under #1 above), and ZL, where the Sent has a chance at an offhand proc. Sent will also have proc chances on Strike, ZS, Slash, et al. Conversely, the Guardian will have a minimum 2 stacks of sunder, unless they don't like building Focus.

Note that the armor debuff is a bit of a variable, since it is also possible, under organized conditions, for the Sent to use a Guardian's armor debuff.

Considering that the three main damage moves (Smash, Exhaust, Blade Storm) do not have a chance of offhand attacks, and that the Guardian gains the advantage of a reliable additional 8-12% armor debuff on all attacks most of the time (and up to 20% in many cases), the damage levels are about equivalent.



Now in the next overall response you went on some tangents. I'm not sure how medal whoring and such really applies to Focus spec damage numbers, et al, but it seems to be important to you. Later in this thread:

Topic 3:

You said: You have to be and stay in soresu for all your guards/taunts to work. So they skip all the shi-cho talents. All of them.

I said: 1. A focus guardian uses Shi Cho for 80%+ of their playtime. Taunts and AOE taunts are not restricted to stance.

Discussion: Re-iteration: TAUNTS DO NOT REQUIRE SORESU. More to your implicit argument: we're talking about a Focus build because you were originally talking about a Focus build. Don't care about tangents where you hybrid spec Focus-Defense because you want to spend half the WZ in Soresu.


Topic 4:

You said: You could be a shi-cho guardian but why? 12 medals easily vs 8 at max. Big numbers are sweet but I'd rather have my max valor sooner. No one stance dances, it isn't worth your time. You choose your spec and then sit in the stance it's built around.

I said: Good players switch stances as it is relevant. If you want to know how a Guardian farms 12 medals and 280k damage, they typically start in Soresu with guard whoring on an acid pit, then swap to Shii Cho / Shien for the rest of the match. They cycle taunts and AOE taunts on cooldown in both stances.

Discussion: Apparently we were on a "let's farm medals" tangent. I have some experience with medal farming, and the approaches behind it. As I stated, and will re-iterate: it does not take much effort for a tank to farm protection medals. In terms of actual valuable gameplay, a tank DOES swap to Soresu if they are a team player and really feel like a Guard will help. I know the tanks in my guild that do it. I know that some of the better PvPers on my server will switch to their tank stance, even if they are not spec'd for it, because they want to do something specific.

They do not "stance dance" like you could in WoW, where you hopped into a different stance for 6s or less (older versions) then swapped back. However, when you are ******** on the enemy team, and then they try to **** on your healer, it's a pretty good tactical options to swap stances for Guard. So, stance swapping does happen. However, it is not "stance dancing" because you are not swapping for 1 instant ability then hopping back, like you would in vanilla WoW to toss in an Overpower while DPSing primarily in Berserker stance.


Topic 5:

You said: We will do more damage vs a single target they have greater aoe. That's pretty much what it boils down to.

I said: 4. Pretty sure it's impossible for Guardians to have "greater AOE" when Sentinels have a 1 Rage cost Cyclone spammable, and Rebuke does multitarget damage.

Discussion: Aside from the single target piece, already discussed above, the "greater AOE" is clearly false. Even though you later focus on the Cyclone part (e.g., there's no way a Sentinel can fail to do as much AOE damage as a Guardian), you neglect the Rebuke aspect which is quite significant. You may or may not realize it, but Rebuke actually does a pretty good amount of total damage. Naturally, that damage is spread out, but it is an AOE effect. Thus, it's pretty damn hard for a Guardian to end up with more AOE damage than a Sentinel, as long as the Sentinel is at the keyboard pressing buttons.


Perhaps that clears up some of the misunderstanding.

Rankith's Avatar


Rankith
01.08.2012 , 06:28 AM | #125
Updated with basic PvP gear info and a few grammar fixes.

Siokai's Avatar


Siokai
01.08.2012 , 11:38 AM | #126
Gratz on Sticky!

Mallyus's Avatar


Mallyus
01.10.2012 , 02:00 AM | #127
If you want to troll each other and whine who is right about Guardians then go make another post. If you actually check the original post again (which you're probably too scared to do since your looking out for the "other guys" retort you will realise that this is a SENTINEL PVP guide.

Can we stick to the original topic and work from there please?

Now...

Regarding Force Fade, the jury is still out for me as I rarely found the use for it when pvping with my guild. However, I did indeed find it incredibly handy when running solo in warzones. So all in all I guess its the usual comment in that it depends how you prefer to play.

I myself am still on a learning curve in respect of maximising damage, but the rotations originally posted are indeed a good call for those new to the class. With practise you will be able to utilise it while also prioritising other required tasks of a sentinel's role in pvp.

Good post!

Some investigation into Focus would indeed be appreciated. Although I would find it hard to see that it would "out do" watchman spec.

Anelyn's Avatar


Anelyn
01.11.2012 , 06:42 AM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
Yeah, the ShiiCho talent for -cooldown seems to be incorrect on the tooltip. Seems to be the only talent that says "FORCE ABILITIES", when it really means only uh, Blade Storm and the Focus31 (Exhaustion?).

Everything else appears to work as expected, although the 6% crit to force powers is difficult to test.

Edit: I suspect they found out that it reduced the cooldown on Force Sweep and re-coded it to highlight specific abilities, but then forgot that Overcharge Saber was also a force power. That or they intentionally left it out. Dunno why though since that would be an awkward Focus build.
It affects blade storm, force sweep, Force stasis, Force exhaustion.

Dekadez's Avatar


Dekadez
01.11.2012 , 03:56 PM | #129
I'm trying to like PvP on my Watchman Sentinel, but I just can't. It feels like such a massive cluster**** where tunnelvision is encouraged that there's hardly any observable effect as to what I'm doing.

Aside from that I feel the melee combat just does not flow properly, maybe due to lack of auto attack. I just don't feel like I'm making any impression.

Rankith's Avatar


Rankith
01.11.2012 , 05:49 PM | #130
Quote: Originally Posted by Dekadez View Post
I'm trying to like PvP on my Watchman Sentinel, but I just can't. It feels like such a massive cluster**** where tunnelvision is encouraged that there's hardly any observable effect as to what I'm doing.

Aside from that I feel the melee combat just does not flow properly, maybe due to lack of auto attack. I just don't feel like I'm making any impression.
Couple things here.

First, yes Watchman "encourages" tunnel vision. This is because it really is quite hard to do it well and demands alot of attention. Do your best to practice "leaning back" and not staring at your character so intensly, be looking elswhere as much as possible even if it screws up your damage a little bit to help break you of that habit, then focus back in on smoothing out your rotation and timings.

Watchman also seems like you don't do much damage as you dont see any big numbers at all. This is actually just really hard to overcome, I struggled with it for a while before I detached myself from the numbers and was just satisfied with my opponent dropping :P. You could try speccing out of Watchman for a bit and in another spec you will notice your damage more, but then you will also notice you have a much harder time bringing peoples health down consistently. Rest assured, watchman does hurt (unless your doing it quite wrong, which is another issue entirely).

And finally, melee combat currently flows quite suckily depending on how much that ability delay/not firing bug hits you.