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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

gofortheko's Avatar


gofortheko
11.20.2012 , 02:28 AM | #971
Quote: Originally Posted by Stncold View Post
There are several Imp premades running almost constantly on P5. These days if you queue as Repub it seems like 80% of the time you'll get matched up against a premade and it's turning people off of even bothering to queue.

At the very least, prioritize premades against other premades, it will be funner for both sides. When I'm in a premade I know I don't like stomping pugs, it's boring and I'd rather go against another premade.
Yup I pug a lot and lose almost everytime, thanks to those premades.
Weapon-of War
Juggernaut:Sentinel:Operative:Sage:Commando:Shadow :Guardian
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Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.20.2012 , 03:16 AM | #972
*Sighs*

Before my actual post, lemme restate my 3 main points again:

1. We need an improved matchmaking system (that matches on some criteria, be it gear level, valor rank, etc...)
2. We need cross-server queues for a health population.
3. People need to help themselves more.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actual post: I have read, for the last 2 pages since my last post, a loop over and over again about "I fight against premades 80% of the time and it's killing blah..."

So again, can anyone give me a valid reason why the answer to losing to something, is -not- to do it in return?

1. If you see a Sin mezz cap something, do you ask for mezz's to be removed from the game, or do you copy it and mezz cap on your Sin?

2. If you see a team slowing yours down while one or two runners open bridges/cap doors, do you cry that slows are unfair ( and that team was cheap!) or do you try and slow the enemy down on your assault turn?

3. If you see the enemy constantly pull a 2/1/5 on civil war and win by take sides while distracting mid, do you tell them they should leave "your" starting turret (the one left from spawn) alone, or do you try the strategy next match?

4. If you see a guardian leap to a stealther at the end zone over and over for a score, do you decide that's cheap or do you do the same on your guardian?

5. etc...

I think any logical person would agree that if you see a strategy that works, you'd be foolish not to copy/use it, and if you can, improve upon it. So why is it that the strategy of forming part of your team and learning how to fight along side them, is one that the PuG-centric mass is unwilling to make?

I look back at almost all my tricks and tactics and remember when I lost to them before. I remember a time too when I thought thinks were 'cheap' and refused to use them. It made me a 'Scrub' in the very sense of the word. Consumables, stealth, "pocket-healer," mezzing, taking sides, etc... All of these things I've been victim too, and learned from. It's taken me from a so-so player to a sought after dps or healer.

It's time to learn people, it's time to grow. If premades make you lose, then my question is... why don't you take advantage of that tool?


((The only compliant about premades I find valid, is the mention of voice chat, which is essential an out of game advantage not widely available to all. Instead of focussing on nerfing teamwork, why not either ask Bioware to take a stance on third party voice chat, or include the feature in-game?))

Atramar's Avatar


Atramar
11.20.2012 , 04:06 AM | #973
Quote: Originally Posted by gofortheko View Post
Yup I pug a lot and lose almost everytime, thanks to those premades.
or maybe it's you?
Leaving weakest (lowest hp) member to guard solo?
not calling?
not guarding?
not killing healer (better to attack dps , to have better stats)
folowing baits?
gettting hard on high dps instead of fast kills?

what is your sin?
Tracer Legacy, The Red Eclipse.
Not reading colored text, it hurts my eyes. Sorry (unless it's a dev post)
L55:Sniper,Operative,Juggernaut,Assassin,Marauder, Powertech,Guardian,Commando,Scoundrel
to finish:Shadow(41),Sage(53),Merc(39). 29.07.2013

Nassik's Avatar


Nassik
11.20.2012 , 05:41 AM | #974
A pre-made team's greatest asset is coordination. That is born of voice communication (in many cases) as well as practice. Coordinated and effective teams function as a cohesive unit. This is their greatest asset and is something that a randomly assembled team of PuGs can never hope to emulate. Eight strangers drawn from different time zones, locales, and classes that have no prior knowledge of each other or their group's composition can never operate as a seamless unit in a warzone at a moment's notice. Not even with added voice communication.

That is why PuGs and pre-mades should be separate. No randomly assembled team can ever spontaneously match the skill and coordination of an existing pre-made. No way. No how. No where.
July 21st 2011.. The Dark Day Bioware pissed on Australia with a little yellow paragraph.

I used to be part of the Community, now I'm just Australian

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.20.2012 , 05:54 AM | #975
Quote: Originally Posted by Nassik View Post
A pre-made team's greatest asset is coordination. That is born of voice communication (in many cases) as well as practice. Coordinated and effective teams function as a cohesive unit. This is their greatest asset and is something that a randomly assembled team of PuGs can never hope to emulate. Eight strangers drawn from different time zones, locales, and classes that have no prior knowledge of each other or their group's composition can never operate as a seamless unit in a warzone at a moment's notice. Not even with added voice communication.

That is why PuGs and pre-mades should be separate. No randomly assembled team can ever spontaneously match the skill and coordination of an existing pre-made. No way. No how. No where.
Nonsense.

With the exception of voice chat coordination, any 8 players who know how to play can and will work perfectly together. Even if all 8 are not, 3-4 working together can achieve much the same effect. I offer an example of -just me- using an understanding of group play and strategy to affect the outcome of a match.

Civil War. The enemy team has captured mid and west, and the pug's on my team (I'm pugging it this round) are struggling to take a node. After wiping on the west turret, several of us go mid on respawn. I head back west as the enemy is running back towards mid. There are 2 guards on the turret, and 4 of them coming to defend mid. Now a average or bad pug at this point might have tried to ninja cap with 2 guards, but someone understanding group play launches into the group for heading toward mid, blowing stuns, mezzes, and roots. I delayed them about 20 seconds, and we captured mid.

With the exception of voice chat (which is a seperate issue I've mentioned before), the -only- difference between a good 4 man premade or 4 good pugs is a premade was grouped before the match.

Or as someone else put it, Premades don't make 4 good players, 4 good players make premades.

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
11.20.2012 , 06:08 AM | #976
Don't forget, premade also means stacking the odds in your favor with proper class composition and geared players. This is a HUGE advantage.

I don't think people would mind PUGing nearly as much if it meant they were guaranteed teammates all geared in war hero, with 2 healers, 2 tanks and 4 DPS, all playing FOTM class/specs. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen. That DOES happen in premade groups.

Just split the queues. There are far more potential solo queuers than premaders, people that premade will still solo queue even if they can't run in groups anymore because the games are going to be relatively even (or random at least). But people that queue solo won't continue to queue at a huge disadvantage, especially when the option of forming your own premade isn't always available to people for numerous reasons (not geared so others don't want you, not the right class/spec, they WILL take you but they themselves aren't geared/good etc).

I run premades, I solo queue, I do both. I would much rather have split queues.

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
11.20.2012 , 06:13 AM | #977
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
With the exception of voice chat (which is a seperate issue I've mentioned before), the -only- difference between a good 4 man premade or 4 good pugs is a premade was grouped before the match.
Except, a premade gets to guarantee they get those 4 good players together in every game they play.

A PUG is playing the lottery, and very very likely to get screwed because the average player is not as good as a handpicked team of geared players with the right composition.

You can either continue to screw over PUG's, drive them away, and kill PvP (It's already heading that direction, queue times are starting to look like they did before the server merges), or you can put everyone at the same handicap with only solo queues available. And then the test would become how well you can work with what you're given, instead of your ability to make friends with a great group and then faceroll PUG's less geared with worse composition than you.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.20.2012 , 06:16 AM | #978
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
Don't forget, premade also means stacking the odds in your favor with proper class composition and geared players. This is a HUGE advantage.

....

I run premades, I solo queue, I do both. I would much rather have split queues.
Premade doesn't = Gear players. Likewise PuG doesn't = Recruit Gear. Gear and Gear gap is a seperate issue from premade vs. PuG. As for class composition, that is an acceptable/valid argument. Having a premade on your team does increase the chance of having atleast 1 healer and 1 tank.

Would you rather split queue's, or a flexible matchmaking system that matched premades to premades, PuG's to PuG's, or an equal mix of Premade+PuGs, with gradualy lessening balance per minute to keep queue times for both sides to a reasonable time? Not to mention this system would also cover the problem created by a split queue, which is incomplete group filling and backfilling.

wadecounty's Avatar


wadecounty
11.20.2012 , 06:20 AM | #979
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Premade doesn't = Gear players. Likewise PuG doesn't = Recruit Gear. Gear and Gear gap is a seperate issue from premade vs. PuG.
It doesn't, but it does. I know for a fact that when I run premades, I group with my friends, who are all in augmented War Hero gear. I know most others do this as well. One of us wants to gear up an alt? That's fine, we carry them, we don't all hop on Recruit geared alts to queue. Not to mention, its more likely you meet people and start consistently grouping with them after you've already PvP'd for a while and gotten yourself some gear, you don't just get stomped next to a couple other Recruit geared guys and go, "Hey, lets group up and get stomped together!".

Quote:
Would you rather split queue's, or a flexible matchmaking system that matched premades to premades, PuG's to PuG's, or an equal mix of Premade+PuGs, with gradualy lessening balance per minute to keep queue times for both sides to a reasonable time? Not to mention this system would also cover the problem created by a split queue, which is incomplete group filling and backfilling.
I'd rather split queues til we can get a flexible matchmaking system? Look at ranked and what a failure of a matchmaking system that is.

Just split the queues.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.20.2012 , 06:28 AM | #980
Quote: Originally Posted by wadecounty View Post
Except, a premade gets to guarantee they get those 4 good players together in every game they play.

A PUG is playing the lottery, and very very likely to get screwed because the average player is not as good as a handpicked team of geared players with the right composition.
You missed the point of what I said, so lemme try again. This was in response to the person saying PuG's -couldn't- fight at the same level as a Premade in terms of coordination.

Good strategies rarely change, and those who know them can use them even without practicing with a particular other person.

Focus'ing a healer is common sense, as is getting them away from a tank. If the fight is 4 of you to 2 of them, it should be pretty easy to guess where the other 6 are. Likewise, if you go to break from the fightt head to were those 6 are and someone else does so too, it shouldn't take words for one of you to decide to let the other go, and keep this fight 3 vs 2. Perhaps one of the more common problems is mezzing. You shouldn't need to communicate not to break someone's mezz. At the same time, you should know not to mezz if it is likely to be broken (aka, in the heat of a fight with aoe).

So yes, a Premade is more likely to get 4 good players (though there -are- bad premades) from fight to fight, but it is nonsense to say a PuG can not act with the same level of coordination and strategy as a good Premade, if the PuG's are actually good players.