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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.18.2012 , 07:49 PM | #931
Quote: Originally Posted by KiranK View Post
Maybe because it never works? Name a game that has a system like that implemented correctly. And don't give me that "match making will become more flexible if a comparable group isn't found". That's the same thing as just mashing together PUGs and premades under a new guise.
Did the Halo 3 matchmaker not match based on an exp system (essential valor)? It would try to match rank 80's together, than after a little, would expand into a rank 70-90, 60-100, etc... It would also try an balance ranking within team (without disbanding groups.) If it matched 4 80's, 2 60's, and 2 50's, you'd see two team of two 80's, one 60, one 50. Rarely (if every) would it match all 4 rank 80's against the two 60's and 50's.

If memory servers, Modern Warfare 2 (and 3?) works in a similiar way. Most people have a wait time of less than a minute or two, groups and pug's are mixed, and the amount of lopsided matches is greatly reduced.

While I've only mentioned matchmaking basing group size being the priority, any criteria would up the "level playing field" feel, without forming a situation where any group/style of play is prohibited from playing. It could be group size, gear level (would have to lock gear on queue to stop switching), valor rank, number of minutes played, whatevs. (Of course, either option really needs cross server queueing. Lack of population probably cause most of the problems.)

Quote: Originally Posted by KiranK View Post
I just did, because inclusive systems all fail. In the exclusive system you can't end up as PUG vs. premade because its impossible. On the inclusive system you can if there aren't enough premades on. It's like we should feel sorry for the premade teams just because not everyone wants to play premade at every hour of the day. I don't want to end up against a premade when I'm solo just because it's not prime premade hour. There will almost always be soloers to play with, so there's no problem there. Premades are another issue and your inclusive system leaves a huge gap. It caters way too much towards the premades. The exclusive system only caters to fairness. Creating a level playing field should always take priority, not mindless queue popping.
Well... shouldn't you feel sorry for people not being able to Play? Not win mind you, since it seems people still can't understand the concept of "Everyone can play any way" is different from "Everyone can win any way."

Let's do a little ranking here. Of course other people's idea of "fun" may be different, but I rank "fun" from top to bottom:

1. Close Win.
2. Close Lose/Stomp Win
3. Stomp Lose
4. Not playing.

So Inclusive system, you've got majority of people sitting in the 2-3 range. Let's say PuG's have mostly Close Lose, or Stomp Lose. Premades sit more in the Stomp Win/Close lose area. As long as there are 16 people of either pug or premade, everyone plays. It's not perfect, but everyone has some level of "fun."

Now you go to the exclusive system. If there aren't 16 premaders, you have up to 15 people in the rank 4 category. If there aren't enough Pug's, once again you can have up to 15 people sitting in the rank 4 category. Instead of taking a imbalanced but playable match, you'd rather up to 30 people (yes, 15 premaders, 15 pugs) having "no fun" just so on off hours, you don't have to deal with your betters.

Edit:

Quote: Originally Posted by KiranK View Post
Creating a level playing field should always take priority, not mindless queue popping.
Forgot to reply to this line.

This is probably the one place we agree. Creating a level playfield should take priority over queue popping... but that's what a priority is. If you have an ability that is a priority (ie, rotation) and it is not available (cooldown, intterupted, conditions not met) do you stand there in the middle of a fight and wait for it? Or do you move onto the next priority in the rotation?

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
11.18.2012 , 07:55 PM | #932
I suspect that unless they completely eliminate the reg wz queue and make everyone queue rated, that x-server matchmaking won't matter. I"m sure that even with x-server, the population is too thin for rated, but rated is the only system with any sort of matchmaking that can be based on reliable stats (wins/loses). we've already established that you can fool any gear check. but then you'd be creating solo queueing in rated and asking BW to do a group finder sort of thing to construct grps, and ppl cheat that all the time (e.g., a tank AC queues as tank for EV cuz 2 tanks are required, but he has no intention of tanking). either way, it's pretty bleak.

I'd give solo queues a shot. it seems more doable than the other options. it's pretty clear that BW is technically limited by the engine they're using.

please pardon me if my rambling doesn't make any sense. I'm mesmerized by the jailhouse bumble bee uniforms that the steelers are wearing. is this for real?
meh
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TL;DR Bolster is meant to help entry level players, ranked PvP is not entry level PvP.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.18.2012 , 08:30 PM | #933
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
I suspect that unless they completely eliminate the reg wz queue and make everyone queue rated, that x-server matchmaking won't matter. I"m sure that even with x-server, the population is too thin for rated, but rated is the only system with any sort of matchmaking that can be based on reliable stats (wins/loses). we've already established that you can fool any gear check. but then you'd be creating solo queueing in rated and asking BW to do a group finder sort of thing to construct grps, and ppl cheat that all the time (e.g., a tank AC queues as tank for EV cuz 2 tanks are required, but he has no intention of tanking). either way, it's pretty bleak.

I'd give solo queues a shot. it seems more doable than the other options. it's pretty clear that BW is technically limited by the engine they're using.

please pardon me if my rambling doesn't make any sense. I'm mesmerized by the jailhouse bumble bee uniforms that the steelers are wearing. is this for real?
Agreed to a degree Foxy, though Valor could be used perhaps? unless you never pvp'ed pre 50, Most people have close to valor 40-50 at 50,and those who have valor 70+ are usually full WH. If all else fails, a matching based on group size is atlease a baby step without the potential blowback of a complete system change.

edit: agree to degree, minus the part about giving solo queue's a shot. =P thought I better clarify that.

criminalheretic's Avatar


criminalheretic
11.18.2012 , 08:49 PM | #934
Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post
The noobstompers don't want that to happen though, takes away their farming even though they keep saying "It sucks and is boring" that's not what they really think, because they are very vocal on saying "L2P" when they know that isn't the issue.
Or...and I don't want anyone's head to explode here by bringing up a point that's been brought up a thousand times already...the issue isn't that mean old pvp guilds don't want to "give up their farming". It's that almost all of us have been through 2-3 server transfers now, and we remember what it got like before the first round, when you could only pvp between 4pm - 9pm and even then it took 15-30 minutes between matches. And we don't want any system in place that has the potential to raise queue times.

Counter-argument? Yeah if people keep getting rolled, they will stop queuing, which will also drive up queue times.

But to constantly brainstorm for a "system" by which people who aren't very good at PvP, still get to win a lot, is an exercise in futility. There is already a system in place, it's called 'getting better', and grouping up with people who are decent. It's ironic that in trying to invent a system by which people can win more often, the first thing people come up with is abolishing the only proven system to do just that.
What we don't understand, we can make mean anything.
Hyperspace Cannon -> Drooga's -> The Harbinger

Muramxx's Avatar


Muramxx
11.18.2012 , 09:52 PM | #935
Quote: Originally Posted by criminalheretic View Post
But to constantly brainstorm for a "system" by which people who aren't very good at PvP, still get to win a lot, is an exercise in futility. There is already a system in place, it's called 'getting better', and grouping up with people who are decent. It's ironic that in trying to invent a system by which people can win more often, the first thing people come up with is abolishing the only proven system to do just that.
Or you could... get this... use the rank system that's why it is there and don't give me crap about how long the que is for that, because that is the premades choice to not do ranked. So if you can choose to not play premade vs pre made why can I not choose to play PUG vs PUG? The last 2 matches I just played guess what both times the entire other team was a guild. I decided I would start writeing down the guild names that I see that have enough to field an entire 8 man team. Of course even then I would only see who is doing this on the pubs side for the most part since I am empire.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.18.2012 , 10:13 PM | #936
Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post
Or you could... get this... use the rank system that's why it is there and don't give me crap about how long the que is for that, because that is the premades choice to not do ranked. So if you can choose to not play premade vs pre made why can I not choose to play PUG vs PUG? The last 2 matches I just played guess what both times the entire other team was a guild. I decided I would start writeing down the guild names that I see that have enough to field an entire 8 man team. Of course even then I would only see who is doing this on the pubs side for the most part since I am empire.
Chances are, they were in the ranked queue with no opponent.

That being said:

Normal Premade = 4 man group.

Ranked Premade = 8 man group.

See the numerical difference here? Not to mention premades choosing to not play ranked is the same decision you've made. Do you play ranked? Nope. So you really can't complain about others not doing it.

Muramxx's Avatar


Muramxx
11.18.2012 , 10:30 PM | #937
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Chances are, they were in the ranked queue with no opponent.

That being said:

Normal Premade = 4 man group.

Ranked Premade = 8 man group.

See the numerical difference here? Not to mention premades choosing to not play ranked is the same decision you've made. Do you play ranked? Nope. So you really can't complain about others not doing it.
I highly, highly doubt that you don't run into back to back 8 man premades because the que just decided "hey, i am not going to match these 2 groups together that have been waiting for ranked for 2 hours for ***** and giggles." I still haven't decided what exactly you want... one sec your preaching even matchmaking, the next your all about premades can do what they want and PUGstomp cause they choose to just like you choose to not do ranked. reading what your write on here is as painful as watching the elections, the canidates flip flop and dance around everything trying to appear smart. Ranked was made so that groups of 8 could play groups of 8... more or less guild level yet here they are still tooling around in the solo Que.... yet all you can say is... "they chose to so quite crying"... ok I choose to play against other PUGs, where is my option for that?? I can probably type your response to this post myself with how much you talk on here, my biggest question would be which post to type. The "we need even matchmaking" or the "they choose to do it just like you can choose to do ranked." The point is that the 10% of Elitists get to choose how PVP goes? Screw the other 90%?

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.18.2012 , 11:13 PM | #938
Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post
I highly, highly doubt that you don't run into back to back 8 man premades because the que just decided "hey, i am not going to match these 2 groups together that have been waiting for ranked for 2 hours for ***** and giggles." I still haven't decided what exactly you want... one sec your preaching even matchmaking, the next your all about premades can do what they want and PUGstomp cause they choose to just like you choose to not do ranked. reading what your write on here is as painful as watching the elections, the canidates flip flop and dance around everything trying to appear smart. Ranked was made so that groups of 8 could play groups of 8... more or less guild level yet here they are still tooling around in the solo Que.... yet all you can say is... "they chose to so quite crying"... ok I choose to play against other PUGs, where is my option for that?? I can probably type your response to this post myself with how much you talk on here, my biggest question would be which post to type. The "we need even matchmaking" or the "they choose to do it just like you can choose to do ranked." The point is that the 10% of Elitists get to choose how PVP goes? Screw the other 90%?
One, ranked doesn't pop if part of the 8 man is in a warzone. Perhaps that's a flaw that needs to be worked out to relieve some of the "premades in non-ranked."

Onto the fun part:

No, I'm pretty sure I've remained constant around 3 points:

1. Need cross-server queue.
2. Need better matchmaking.
3. People need to be more self reliant.

Any reference to "fixing" the actual system, (which yes, is admiting it is not only imperfect, but could be harming the overall health of the game) will result in points 1 and 2.

Any crying, complaining, or appeal to "Why can't I play my way?" will result in point 3. As I've said over and over, if a commando is wearing strength armor they can do as they like, but they should expect to lose/suck. Same goes true for those who think PuG-only (everyone has to PuG at some point, so I don't mean every PuG) should/is a viable option is playing wrong, and should expect to lose/suck.

Muramxx's Avatar


Muramxx
11.19.2012 , 12:28 AM | #939
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
One, ranked doesn't pop if part of the 8 man is in a warzone. Perhaps that's a flaw that needs to be worked out to relieve some of the "premades in non-ranked."

Onto the fun part:

No, I'm pretty sure I've remained constant around 3 points:

1. Need cross-server queue.
2. Need better matchmaking.
3. People need to be more self reliant.

Any reference to "fixing" the actual system, (which yes, is admiting it is not only imperfect, but could be harming the overall health of the game) will result in points 1 and 2.

Any crying, complaining, or appeal to "Why can't I play my way?" will result in point 3. As I've said over and over, if a commando is wearing strength armor they can do as they like, but they should expect to lose/suck. Same goes true for those who think PuG-only (everyone has to PuG at some point, so I don't mean every PuG) should/is a viable option is playing wrong, and should expect to lose/suck.
1) Agree better match making.
2)Cross server que... never going to happen so I don't know why people are fixated on this....
3) self reliant... which would be relying on yourself not a GROUP... so that means PUGs are more self reliant in some ways then Premades.

I go back to what I said before. You believe in better match making, if that match making means that people can do as they are doing now. Example 2 groups or 4 que at the same time and have a good chance of being together PUGstomp, cause odds are they are on the same side. which goes back to the facts I posted ealier that the servers are all one sided, because people hate to lose and side with the group that has more premades in an attempt to win. On my server almost all of the premades I encounter are on the pubs side, also I seem to see a lot of the same people over the past month PVPing on the Empire side and a slue of different names and guilds on the pubs side. There is no fair match making system unless you alot so many healers/tanks/dps on each side and then toss in a gear filter.... you want to talk about a long que, that would be a very long one. The closest you will ever get to giving everyone a challenge is to seperate the ques. There are lots of games that do this allow for people to randomly get pushed into groups or teams. You continue to say PUGers are crying, we are cause we want a challenge not a spanking 85% of the time. You keep saying there is no excuse to split the 2 but really what is the excuse not to? because the que will be longer... oh no wait an extra 10mins to get into a game. That just shows a very very bad elitiest attidue.

Everytime you comment on something there is an underlying message, You think it's ok for premades to destroy PUGs over and over if it keeps the que time down... well guess what... the que time is going to go up drasticly when people stop quing. Then the outcome that has been stated many times will happen premade will fight premades and there will be barely any PUGs. So splitting the que, while this will raise the que time a little, in the end will allow for two decent ques rather then one ****** one and a dead game. Of course I belive you said you would rather the game ends in one post. It's a give some take some issue and you need to realize this both sides will lose something but gain something as well.

Muramxx's Avatar


Muramxx
11.19.2012 , 12:34 AM | #940
[QUOTE=Doomsdaycomes;5434362]One, ranked doesn't pop if part of the 8 man is in a warzone.QUOTE]

Sorry had to point this one out. This is you defending premades PUGstomping. Earlier you said people wait a long time in ranked before they would drop to a regular que.... That would mean at least one of them didn't, however I am betting neither of them did because ranked is dead and why do that when you can PUGstomp right.