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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

cycao's Avatar


cycao
12.10.2013 , 05:10 PM | #6431
Quote: Originally Posted by Jarvus View Post
Like I told you already but that you seemed to ignore, you can cast aside that analogy offered by me and independently by others too, in favor of any of the other analogies of a rigged poker game or whatever you want. Don't get emotionally bent out of shape over an analogy that was meant to describe the unfair imbalance and the total domination that PVP is when a team of ringers enters a warzone.
Well when you know someone who has been raped and someone uses it in any analogy it sickens me.

Quote: Originally Posted by Anzel View Post
I love how a team of eight people, fully geared, using a hack, all Q'ing together against random people keep screaming, "Oh we are just so masterful. So skillful. Yeah, that's it." Skill has ****nothing to do with anything when all eight people on the other team are cheating.
You're assuming everyone is hacking who premades and synching (assuming thats what you mean by a team of 8) queues when in reality anyone can including pugs. In reality very few people "super queue" and I rarely see anyone hack and when I did it was always a solo player speed hacking.

Anzel's Avatar


Anzel
12.10.2013 , 05:16 PM | #6432
Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
they should have skill divisions! Then everything will be equal!
1.) They should get rid of the silly Expertise stat. It's stupid and adds no value to the game. It only penalizes PvE players for not participating in PvP and PvP players for not participating in PvE. It creates a partition in the player community where there should be none without any additive value.

2.) You should have to queue alone or as a full group.

3.) Match making should go across servers.

4.) Match making should consider level, gear, stats, class/AC, win/loss%, total kills, and valor rank

5.) Bolster should be scrapped. It was a terrible idea which they implemented in a terrible way and then proceeded to offer broken patch after broken design after broken patch as a solution. People still "Bolster Bug" to this day.

6.) They need to remove "Ranked" gear.

7.) They should have more incentive to participate in open world PvP so that we don't have the same sooper l33t d00ds killing each other over and over and over again with their macros on the same damn maps over and over again. How about give us a reason to visit the rest of the Galaxy again after level 55? (See "Remove Ranked Gear" above)

8.) How about after they REMOVE EXPERTISE (see above) we combine the PvE concept of Operations with the PvP concept of WarZones and have competing teams of (well matched) players trying to completed the objectives. Enough of this capture the flag and race from node to node crap. I mean really.

9.) They should completely REMOVE the cost to extract mods for subscribers so we can spend our credits elsewhere.

10.) Finally... an exception report should automatically be generated every time one team ends up with an average of 4 kills and the other team ends up with an average of 40. You know just so they can look into how masterful and skillful the one team was and just how bad the other team was. Or maybe revisit their match making strategy.
ANZEL - Master Bounty Hunter - Corbantis Galaxy - 06/23/2003
ANZEL - Bounty Hunter / Mercenary - The Corbantis Legacy - 12/13/2011
ANZEL - SWG EMU - CORE 1 Developer - 06/2006

Zunayson's Avatar


Zunayson
12.10.2013 , 05:25 PM | #6433
Quote: Originally Posted by Anzel View Post
1.) They should get rid of the silly Expertise stat. It's stupid and adds no value to the game. It only penalizes PvE players for not participating in PvP and PvP players for not participating in PvE. It creates a partition in the player community where there should be none without any additive value.

2.) You should have to queue alone or as a full group.

3.) Match making should go across servers.

4.) Match making should consider level, gear, stats, class/AC, win/loss%, total kills, and valor rank

5.) Bolster should be scrapped. It was a terrible idea which they implemented in a terrible way and then proceeded to offer broken patch after broken design after broken patch as a solution. People still "Bolster Bug" to this day.

6.) They need to remove "Ranked" gear.

7.) They should have more incentive to participate in open world PvP so that we don't have the same sooper l33t d00ds killing each other over and over and over again with their macros on the same damn maps over and over again. How about give us a reason to visit the rest of the Galaxy again after level 55? (See "Remove Ranked Gear" above)

8.) How about after they REMOVE EXPERTISE (see above) we combine the PvE concept of Operations with the PvP concept of WarZones and have competing teams of (well matched) players trying to completed the objectives. Enough of this capture the flag and race from node to node crap. I mean really.

9.) They should completely REMOVE the cost to extract mods for subscribers so we can spend our credits elsewhere.

10.) Finally... an exception report should automatically be generated every time one team ends up with an average of 4 kills and the other team ends up with an average of 40. You know just so they can look into how masterful and skillful the one team was and just how bad the other team was. Or maybe revisit their match making strategy.
if I'm in the top 90% of pvp then I expect to win 90% of the time and not be paired each time with people my level so I can feel "normal"

Vice versa goes for exceptionally bad bads.


Damn socialism.
Quote: Originally Posted by Uber_the_Goober View Post
Bioware couldn't balance a sheet of plywood if it were laying [sic] on the ground.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aragost View Post
Make sure you take 3/3 in the "knowing how to play" box

Anzel's Avatar


Anzel
12.10.2013 , 05:26 PM | #6434
Quote: Originally Posted by cycao View Post
You're assuming everyone is hacking who premades and synching (assuming thats what you mean by a team of 8) queues when in reality anyone can including pugs. In reality very few people "super queue" and I rarely see anyone hack and when I did it was always a solo player speed hacking.
When one team has an average of 4 kills and the other team has an average of 40 there is a problem. When it happens with regularity there is a bigger problem and please don't tell me that one team is super masterful and skillful and awesome and the other team is bad and none of them know how to play SWTOR.

Even if that was the case, something is wrong with the matchmaking.

I'll use my jiu-jitsu / judo / boxing example again. All competitive sports, all of them have brackets. The brackets are there for a reason. You don't bracket a 9 year old girl with a 21 year old man. You don't bracket a white belt in BJJ with even a good blue belt in BJJ. Most reputable organizations (IBJJF, KOZEN, etc.) keep records. If you go several tournaments and sweep your division by submission (or IPPON in Judo) then it's time for a new belt, and a new bracket of guys/girls at your age, rank, weight.

I BJJ there is a saying, "The truth always comes out on the mats". Wanna see how "skillful" you are? Try actually fighting some fair fights...
ANZEL - Master Bounty Hunter - Corbantis Galaxy - 06/23/2003
ANZEL - Bounty Hunter / Mercenary - The Corbantis Legacy - 12/13/2011
ANZEL - SWG EMU - CORE 1 Developer - 06/2006

Anzel's Avatar


Anzel
12.10.2013 , 05:29 PM | #6435
Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
if I'm in the top 90% of pvp then I expect to win 90% of the time and not be paired each time with people my level so I can feel "normal"

Vice versa goes for exceptionally bad bads.


Damn socialism.
This isn't a political or theological activity. It's a simple competition. Not even a real one. It's a video game. So should the Denver Broncos play Michigan State this weekend? Payton Manning is in the top 90% of all quarterbacks ever. Why should he have to play other top level quaterbacks? I mean really...
ANZEL - Master Bounty Hunter - Corbantis Galaxy - 06/23/2003
ANZEL - Bounty Hunter / Mercenary - The Corbantis Legacy - 12/13/2011
ANZEL - SWG EMU - CORE 1 Developer - 06/2006

Zunayson's Avatar


Zunayson
12.10.2013 , 05:30 PM | #6436
Quote: Originally Posted by Anzel View Post
When one team has an average of 4 kills and the other team has an average of 40 there is a problem. When it happens with regularity there is a bigger problem and please don't tell me that one team is super masterful and skillful and awesome and the other team is bad and none of them know how to play SWTOR.

Even if that was the case, something is wrong with the matchmaking.

I'll use my jiu-jitsu / judo / boxing example again. All competitive sports, all of them have brackets. The brackets are there for a reason. You don't bracket a 9 year old girl with a 21 year old man. You don't bracket a white belt in BJJ with even a good blue belt in BJJ. Most reputable organizations (IBJJF, KOZEN, etc.) keep records. If you go several tournaments and sweep your division by submission (or IPPON in Judo) then it's time for a new belt, and a new bracket of guys/girls at your age, rank, weight.

I BJJ there is a saying, "The truth always comes out on the mats". Wanna see how "skillful" you are? Try actually fighting some fair fights...
If you only fight people your skill, nobody is skillful.

This is the same reason you don't give out money to poor people to make them rich - nobody is rich.

Last match where it was a complete disaster for the other team was simply the fact that 6 of us were stealthers. So, we just focused each enemy 1 by 1. I didn't get but one discharge in per person D:

Quote: Originally Posted by Anzel View Post
This isn't a political or theological activity. It's a simple competition. Not even a real one. It's a video game. So should the Denver Broncos play Michigan State this weekend? Payton Manning is in the top 90% of all quarterbacks ever. Why should he have to play other top level quaterbacks? I mean really...
I live in Jacksonville. So naturally, I like to make this pretty basic analogy - The Jaguars (Very bad if you didn't know) every year play the best NFL teams like the Patriots and formerly the Colts.

Of course nobody expects Jacksonville to win, but they play and don't whine. While college and professional have large weight differences, the reason they don't play together is because football, like every other form of competition, measures a set of skills. In football, we can list a tentative draft of these skills:
  • Speed
  • Strength
  • Agility
  • Teamwork
  • Experience

All other sorts of factors must stay the SAME - as you said, for skill to matter.
  • Weight
  • Number of players on each time
  • Number of time outs
  • (other mechanical things that are the same on both sides)

However, the NFL does not dissolve the constantly best teams and give players to the constantly worse teams (looking at you, Jaguars). So, making "skill brackets" is bad competitive design, and making "other factor brackets" is good.

In TOR, we can make this tentative list of factors of SKILL
  • Reflexes
  • Experience
  • Map knowledge
  • Teamwork
  • Class knowledge
  • LoS/CC/Coordination/whatever

All other factors must STAY THE SAME (Thus, things like brackets, bolster, etc.)
  • Level (Brackets and bolster)
  • Ability ranks (Boslter allegedly fixes this)
  • Skill points (I wish they tried to equalize them)
  • Number of people on each team
  • Voice chat - technically against the ToS but nobody really cares. And indeed, it *is* not fair that one team gets it and one team does not, but meh.

That means that we make brackets based on the SECOND LIST, not the FIRST.

Just like the NFL does not make skill brackets, TOR should NOT make brackets for the unskilled and skilled, but rather brackets for the undergeared and BiS - lower and higher levels
Quote: Originally Posted by Uber_the_Goober View Post
Bioware couldn't balance a sheet of plywood if it were laying [sic] on the ground.
Quote: Originally Posted by Aragost View Post
Make sure you take 3/3 in the "knowing how to play" box

cycao's Avatar


cycao
12.10.2013 , 05:31 PM | #6437
Quote: Originally Posted by Anzel View Post
When one team has an average of 4 kills and the other team has an average of 40 there is a problem. When it happens with regularity there is a bigger problem and please don't tell me that one team is super masterful and skillful and awesome and the other team is bad and none of them know how to play SWTOR.

Even if that was the case, something is wrong with the matchmaking.

I'll use my jiu-jitsu / judo / boxing example again. All competitive sports, all of them have brackets. The brackets are there for a reason. You don't bracket a 9 year old girl with a 21 year old man. You don't bracket a white belt in BJJ with even a good blue belt in BJJ. Most reputable organizations (IBJJF, KOZEN, etc.) keep records. If you go several tournaments and sweep your division by submission (or IPPON in Judo) then it's time for a new belt, and a new bracket of guys/girls at your age, rank, weight.

I BJJ there is a saying, "The truth always comes out on the mats". Wanna see how "skillful" you are? Try actually fighting some fair fights...
There is no matchmaking for regs which is part of the problem.

First, stop bringing up sports. I get that there can be a comparison but in this game you cannot compare anything to them since that is assuming that both teams are on the same skill plain. When in reality the skill gap is enormous in this game. When you see a team with an average of 50ish kills compared to the other team averaging 15 it means that either one team had healers and the other didn't (which I will agree can be huge) or one team was just flat out better than the other.

Jorojus's Avatar


Jorojus
12.10.2013 , 05:31 PM | #6438
Quote: Originally Posted by Anzel View Post
When one team has an average of 4 kills and the other team has an average of 40 there is a problem. When it happens with regularity there is a bigger problem and please don't tell me that one team is super masterful and skillful and awesome and the other team is bad and none of them know how to play SWTOR.

Even if that was the case, something is wrong with the matchmaking.

I'll use my jiu-jitsu / judo / boxing example again. All competitive sports, all of them have brackets. The brackets are there for a reason. You don't bracket a 9 year old girl with a 21 year old man. You don't bracket a white belt in BJJ with even a good blue belt in BJJ. Most reputable organizations (IBJJF, KOZEN, etc.) keep records. If you go several tournaments and sweep your division by submission (or IPPON in Judo) then it's time for a new belt, and a new bracket of guys/girls at your age, rank, weight.

I BJJ there is a saying, "The truth always comes out on the mats". Wanna see how "skillful" you are? Try actually fighting some fair fights...
So this entire discussion is pointless, everyone knows that matchmaking / lack of cross server is the real problem, even Bioware. They just don't seem to be able to do anything about it or they would have done it already.

Or they just don't care.

6,443 replies 230,073 views (even tough half of the people posting here don' have a clue what they are talking about if I may be so bold)

Still no developer response, topic has 4 stars other topics have none. Says enough doesn't it ?
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Brimmer's Avatar


Brimmer
12.10.2013 , 05:35 PM | #6439
Quote: Originally Posted by cycao View Post
Well when you know someone who has been raped and someone uses it in any analogy it sickens me. .
I fail to see why we should care? Rape = bad. Anyone can tell you that. However this is a discussion. His choice of words may be inappropriate, but it is a valid comparison. If you don't like what people say /ignore them. We're not here to hold your hand. The world is already censored enough.
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Anzel's Avatar


Anzel
12.10.2013 , 05:37 PM | #6440
Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
If you only fight people your skill, nobody is skillful.
I would invite you to watch Superbowl 43. One of the most competitive games I've ever seen. Big Ben versus an aging Kurt Warner. Awesome game. Wanna see two "fairly matched" teams display skill? Watch that game. I can point you to an endless list of other such examples.

Quote: Originally Posted by Zunayson View Post
This is the same reason you don't give out money to poor people to make them rich - nobody is rich.
I'm not sure how that fits in with the spirit of fair competition. But yes, I agree.
ANZEL - Master Bounty Hunter - Corbantis Galaxy - 06/23/2003
ANZEL - Bounty Hunter / Mercenary - The Corbantis Legacy - 12/13/2011
ANZEL - SWG EMU - CORE 1 Developer - 06/2006