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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

Vladnar's Avatar


Vladnar
10.27.2013 , 12:26 PM | #6121
Virtually no reps pvp at all, all games imp on imp and my server sees virtually no solo ranked arena at all.

Groups should have their own queue and solo should be able to queue for wz and ranked arena at the same time and id make all wz cross-server too.
The time of the Empire is now truly upon us

Sangrar's Avatar


Sangrar
10.27.2013 , 03:47 PM | #6122
Quote: Originally Posted by Vladnar View Post
Virtually no reps pvp at all, all games imp on imp and my server sees virtually no solo ranked arena at all.

Groups should have their own queue and solo should be able to queue for wz and ranked arena at the same time and id make all wz cross-server too.
first of all, which server are you on?
Second, cross server is not exactly simple, everyone talks about it like its a 5 minute process to set up, there are a lot of bugs to overcome before you can even come close to releasing one, unless you people want Bioware to give us a crappy prototype cross server that is a buggy piece of crap that no one will enjoy and ruin pvp.
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DainjaMouz's Avatar


DainjaMouz
10.27.2013 , 04:49 PM | #6123
Quote: Originally Posted by GARhenus View Post
30% win percentage is still tolerable provided there are plenty of queue pops. Otherwise, (specially in non/pvp servers) 50% coz wzs get harder to come by after most people are done with dailies
Thank YOU for a rational response! One would assume, with a completely random (or some sort of "balanced team / random by class") assignment system, a random player could expect to win 50% of the time. However, even if BW had an effective random assignment system, you still end up with biased teams. Why?

(1) Regardless of whether they're premade or not, players that queue as a group are likely to be more experienced / better geared than PUG teams. The longer a user has played, the more likely they are to find other players that they're interested in playing with. In addition, a "group team" is likely to be designed for role balance, where we all know that BW provides little in the way of role balance in solo unranked queue. As a result of these two issues, a "group team" is likely to have a better than 50% win rate against a true random draw.

(2) Higher skilled / geared players are more likely to drop out of a solo unranked team if they're unhappy with team composition or player quality. I continue to argue that this is the larger issue, because when higher ranked players drop out of a "random" assignment (and I see this a LOT more than I see premade teams), the likelihood of the remaining team members (+ adds) scoring a win is reduced. It's also pretty poor sportsmanship, but that's another discussion.

Given these issues, less experienced players are more likely to be on losing teams than experienced players in a random assignment model that doesn't provide penalties for grouping or dropping. The level of bias these issues really introduce would require data from BW, and some analysis. However, whether or not this bothers you is a matter of psychology, not statistics. On a PvE server, with a decent amount of solo unranked WZ experience at Lvl55, I've gotten to the point where I'm averaging close to a 30% win rate. As I've said previously, I've also played enough on the JC server that I can look at the toons on my team and have a pretty good sense of whether we're going to be competitive or not. As a result, I could boost my win rate by dropping teams that lack experience, but that's not how I roll.

So, complain about premades if you want. From my PoV it's part of the game that's not going to change, because there will always be players that try to game the environment regardless of what disincentives or alternatives you put in place, because that's what ***hats do, just like IRL.
The PvP Fringe @ Jedi Covenant
Ashes of Ashla Andrrikan - lvl 55 MM | Ultetharu - lvl 14 Merc
Dainjamous - lvl 36 Sentinel
"Less frou frou, more pew pew!"

General_Aldo's Avatar


General_Aldo
10.27.2013 , 06:13 PM | #6124
Individual Skill is the largest contributing factor for regular warzones.
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TheSupaCoopa's Avatar


TheSupaCoopa
10.27.2013 , 06:44 PM | #6125
Duran'del Here:
It seems this man believes playing with your friends in a game that is meant to be played with said friend(s) is illegal....
The Valiance Legacy, Begeren Colony
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TheSupaCoopa's Avatar


TheSupaCoopa
10.27.2013 , 06:45 PM | #6126
Holy 600+ pages Batman!
The Valiance Legacy, Begeren Colony
"I don't get paid to do the easy jobs, ma'am."- Republic Trooper
Current 50's and 55's

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Carter_Mathis's Avatar


Carter_Mathis
10.27.2013 , 06:53 PM | #6127
Quote: Originally Posted by DainjaMouz View Post
(2) Higher skilled / geared players are more likely to drop out of a solo unranked team if they're unhappy with team composition or player quality. I continue to argue that this is the larger issue, because when higher ranked players drop out of a "random" assignment (and I see this a LOT more than I see premade teams), the likelihood of the remaining team members (+ adds) scoring a win is reduced. It's also pretty poor sportsmanship, but that's another discussion.
Especially on JC, since the first round of server merges, this is not true. Some moderately skilled players are known for leaving warzones they aren't winning, but the top tier players from the notable guilds (LD50, Uncensored + The Turks, some Rep Gents, Prime Defense... shameless plug ) made it a point of not just bolting out of warzones. The logic behind it is pretty simple too, quitting reflects poorly on their guild. Now there were plenty of instances of Troy's stream where he would quit out of a wz or recommend quitting out of the warzone, but that just further proves the notion that players of moderate skill level quit significantly more than the players that would be game-changers.

DainjaMouz's Avatar


DainjaMouz
10.28.2013 , 04:59 AM | #6128
Quote: Originally Posted by TheSupaCoopa View Post
Duran'del Here:
It seems this man believes playing with your friends in a game that is meant to be played with said friend(s) is illegal....
Actually, that's about the opposite of what I'm saying. All I'm saying is that groups have a higher likelihood of winning than non-groups. You can argue how much benefit it provides, but it is not zero. And, even if BW were to penalize group play, ****hats would find a way around it, because that's what they do. Players interested in playing with friends, and not in it for the joy of gaming the system would probably walk away to another game.
The PvP Fringe @ Jedi Covenant
Ashes of Ashla Andrrikan - lvl 55 MM | Ultetharu - lvl 14 Merc
Dainjamous - lvl 36 Sentinel
"Less frou frou, more pew pew!"

Haystak's Avatar


Haystak
10.28.2013 , 05:27 AM | #6129
Just posting just to say I have a post in here. I wanted to feel like a part of something big.

Go Premades!!! beat Pugs!!
60s Scoundrel,Sage
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DainjaMouz's Avatar


DainjaMouz
10.28.2013 , 05:57 AM | #6130
Quote: Originally Posted by General_Aldo View Post
Individual Skill is the largest contributing factor for regular warzones.
Completely agree with you. However, there's a big difference between "largest contributing" and "only". Without some real data from BW, it's all speculation. I'm sure they have the data, and it'd make for a fun statistical analysis exercise.

I guess I'd go one further, though, and say that collective skill is the "largest contributing factor". Using HP as a proxy for skill (not perfect, I know), if I'm the only 35k on a team full of 22ks facing another team that's all at +30, we're toast. My individual skill is not going to get us the win, regardless of whether the other team is using mumble.

A disclaimer: as I've said before, I don't think SWTOR has a significant premade problem. Every MMO has its unique set of issues, and people end up choosing the ones they can live with. I would be concerned with any system-based solution, because it would end up penalizing players simply interested in playing a wz with friends. While the current system isn't perfect, it's working for a significant majority of players.
The PvP Fringe @ Jedi Covenant
Ashes of Ashla Andrrikan - lvl 55 MM | Ultetharu - lvl 14 Merc
Dainjamous - lvl 36 Sentinel
"Less frou frou, more pew pew!"