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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
07.22.2013 , 12:47 PM | #5221
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
The only benefit is that casual solo queuers don't see competitive premades. They won't see casual premades either, but that isn't really a problem right now anyway and only prolongs their queue time.
one caveat: every solo Qer benefits -- but I think it's safe to say that solos are of a more casual nature in general (not to say there aren't a ton of casual premades, just speaking for solo pool).

I think you're operating under the assumption that if a good player does not grp, it hurts him. however, if he's a good player who Qs solo, then the fact that he could be grp'd is irrelevant. by definition, a solo Qer is solo. a solos-only-Q levels the odds for everyone in the Q. not just the "casuals."

it's a minor point because the very good players tend to run in grps anyway, but I would change your statement to "the major benefit is that solo queueres never see competitive premades."

once again, I'd like to state that, first and foremost, as a solo Qer, I want the ability to DECLINE IN-PROGRESS WZs. that's what kills me about solo Qing. I get pulled into roflstomps all the time. and it's only the solos who suffer this. if you cannot give me this option, then I'd like the option to Q on the same basis as EVERYONE ELSE in the Q (i.e., when I Q solo, I'm only up against others who also are Qing solo).
A legacy of meh
Krackerjšck/Krackerjak (VG/PT) | Krackerjack/Deinon (Mando/Merc) | Dežnon (Jugg) | other stuffs
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TL;DR Bolster is meant to help entry level players, ranked PvP is not entry level PvP.

Vaerah's Avatar


Vaerah
07.22.2013 , 12:56 PM | #5222
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
it's a minor point because the very good players tend to run in grps anyway, but I would change your statement to "the major benefit is that solo queueres never see competitive premades."
This is another statement that is not necessarily true. I used to be very good (some years ago), played 8+ hours a day and always in top premades from log in to log off.

Then life happened, now I have 1.5-2h a day tops and at random, not scheduled times. It's still the same person (well I am older so not as quick as once) but now I can't be in a top guild or even in a medium guild, because they require both longer played time and regular hours. I am sure that many other now 40-ers are in my same situation. If I could I'd indeed immediately join a group happy guild and return to the old premade glory days but I can't. I could be the best player in the world but if I have random play times it does not help me getting a group, hence the "very good players tend to run in grps anyway" statement is shallow at best.
Vaerah Shadow | Arayah Vanguard | Kainessa Gunslinger | ToFN server.
Vaerahn Sorceress | Vaerahm Marauder | ToFN server.

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
07.22.2013 , 01:00 PM | #5223
"tend to run in grps." that's the tendency.
A legacy of meh
Krackerjšck/Krackerjak (VG/PT) | Krackerjack/Deinon (Mando/Merc) | Dežnon (Jugg) | other stuffs
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TL;DR Bolster is meant to help entry level players, ranked PvP is not entry level PvP.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
07.22.2013 , 01:04 PM | #5224
Quote: Originally Posted by Vaerah View Post
What matters is that as premaders you quickly:

- learn the game and all the tricks
- get the best gear (PUGs indeed have access to these too but months later, they get rolled over for months before they get those perks).
- tested group composition
- most of all, you play with guys whose actions and reactions you know like your own.

Now find me how a casual / pugger can do this.
This is a matter of skill and preparation, and is not limited by queue type.

(On a side note: If this was true, I'd be Goddess of PvP. but I actually kind of suck so... yeah.)


This is a time/effort based thing. Time/effort is not based on queue type.

This is again, a higher probability of: Not an actual inherent advantage in grouping. Considering there are 4 other random players on your team even in a full 4-man, you can still end up with a sucky comp. Again, not limited by queue type.

Alright, this one's a bit of a grey area because you mentioned personal quirks. I myself tend to hug the middle of the 2nd door on voidstar as a healer, and some of my tanks/dps know that. <.< However, some of my common opponents also know that, and it -hurts.- In theory PuG's who have played together or simply know common quirks could have the same kind of relationship. I did tell a story about me and another Operative kicking *** and taking names. Never met before, but just moved in such perfect unison you would have sworn we had. Either way, it's not something really exclusive to pre-grouping, but it is something learned from grouped play.

Purple is generally my most important point:

You said casual/solo and that's the problem. A casual is not equal to a solo player. I "minimalize" the group advantage for this reason. The problem isn't in groups vs. PuGs, it's in non-casual and/or competitive vs casual and/or non-competitive.
Player Responsibility: Players have the responsibility to strive for improvement before asking for changes.
Player Accountability: Insufficient credits, lack of gear, poor reputation, and inability to compete is the price of laziness, incompetence, and/or unwillingness.

otherworlder's Avatar


otherworlder
07.22.2013 , 01:44 PM | #5225
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
Your points were addressed. Team comp will continue being a problem in solo queue. All you've done is make it less likely. It also hasn't solved the team comp in group queue as casual premades aren't focused on what classes they are bringing, just that they have friends. So I fail to see how solo queue resolves this issue. Outside of a role toggle, this will never be fixed and that would decimate queue times and suffer all the shortcomings of group finder.

The distinction in who benefits from a solution is key. There are multiple types of people who both group and queue solo. Solo queue only benefits the casual solo queuer to some extent and no one else. Competitive groups still play with/against casual groups. Casual groups still play with/against competitive groups. Competitive solo queuers still play with/against casual solo queuers. Casual solo queuers still play with/against competitive solo queuers.

The only benefit is that casual solo queuers don't see competitive premades. They won't see casual premades either, but that isn't really a problem right now anyway and only prolongs their queue time.

If your only argument is that you don't think BW can implement a successful matchmaking system, then you may consider moving on to a different game. If you don't trust the devs to improve your experience, then the game will never get better for you.
I bolded one of your comments above because both you and Doom used a similar statement in attempt at rebuttal of this point.

It's sort of... conveniently naive for two people arguing hard for the most pragmatic, practical solution to suddenly rely on the notion that BW could deliver on a complex matchmaking system when all evidence points firmly to the contrary. There's nothing practical about blind, unsupported faith.

I love TOR, but you'll never catch me relying on the idea that the BW devs will figure out the Hero engine they cobbled together or that EA will decide to start putting resources into complicated ideas that don't immediately yield a bottom line.
We all know that's not likely to happen (though I'd be giddy to be proven wrong on this point), and being a realist doesn't make me less of a TOR supporter than anyone else.

Simple changes are (somewhat) within BW's ability to implement without many resources spent or possibility for game breaking bugs. Mathematically complex systems demanding a lot of resources and tons of variables are a train wreck waiting to happen.

Let people play the way they want to.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
07.22.2013 , 02:11 PM | #5226
Quote: Originally Posted by otherworlder View Post
Let people play the way they want to.
Okay, pet peeve number 2.

Let people play... no one is -stopping- a PuG, Casual, Non-competitive, etc... from playing how they want to play now. They are free to queue without a group, run into the warzone naked, and throw legacy punches, spam emotes, etc. Everyone is allowed to play in the current system.

In a matchmaking system, everyone is still allowed to play -and- the system tries to sort them via "how they like to play." A lot fewer lopsided matches, more equality, etc.

In split queue/toggle there are player -not- allowed to play how they want. If there isn't another group (and in the case of 3-mans, a specific combination of other groups) then so sorry, you don't get to play. Meanwhile there may be plenty of PvP'ers playing, but they've got their own specially tailored play place, and **** the rest of you! (Paraphrasing actual other posters here).


As for the rest of it, Bioware can't, simple solution, etc... I've already made my points about those.
Player Responsibility: Players have the responsibility to strive for improvement before asking for changes.
Player Accountability: Insufficient credits, lack of gear, poor reputation, and inability to compete is the price of laziness, incompetence, and/or unwillingness.

otherworlder's Avatar


otherworlder
07.22.2013 , 02:30 PM | #5227
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Okay, pet peeve number 2.

Let people play... no one is -stopping- a PuG, Casual, Non-competitive, etc... from playing how they want to play now. They are free to queue without a group, run into the warzone naked, and throw legacy punches, spam emotes, etc. Everyone is allowed to play in the current system.

In a matchmaking system, everyone is still allowed to play -and- the system tries to sort them via "how they like to play." A lot fewer lopsided matches, more equality, etc.

In split queue/toggle there are player -not- allowed to play how they want. If there isn't another group (and in the case of 3-mans, a specific combination of other groups) then so sorry, you don't get to play. Meanwhile there may be plenty of PvP'ers playing, but they've got their own specially tailored play place, and **** the rest of you! (Paraphrasing actual other posters here).


As for the rest of it, Bioware can't, simple solution, etc... I've already made my points about those.
You've made your points on how realistic the matchmaking idea is, but they remain naive.

You're gunning for a highly theoretical pie in the sky solution that BW's present devs not only couldn't accomplish, but are not likely to TRY and accomplish any time soon.

Let's keep the bar low.

Our chances of getting a minor change (an on/off button) are a whole lot better than a sweeping reconstruction of the guts of the queuing system and the addition of visible/invisible player stat tracking on numerous variables that may or may not even BE a good indicator of player skill/experience (not to mention all of those variables would probably start at 0 and require a lot of time to build up any useful data).

If BW decides to sink a lot of money and man-hours into a system to help PvP balance, I think everyone is agreed we'd much rather see them put that effort into X-Server development instead.

cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
07.22.2013 , 02:47 PM | #5228
just for the record, you cant use legacy punches in warzones anymore. i tried and it wouldnt work. sad panda
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Helig's Avatar


Helig
07.22.2013 , 03:19 PM | #5229
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
just for the record, you cant use legacy punches in warzones anymore. i tried and it wouldnt work. sad panda
Awwww, that's awful. We used to run bare-chested+fist skills in Huttball with my guildies if we faced a PuG.

Especially hilarious with 2 body type 4 male twi'leks in the group.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Carter_Mathis's Avatar


Carter_Mathis
07.22.2013 , 03:50 PM | #5230
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
This is a matter of skill and preparation, and is not limited by queue type.

(On a side note: If this was true, I'd be Goddess of PvP. but I actually kind of suck so... yeah.)
I have some bad news for you then......
Spoiler
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