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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

Muramxx's Avatar


Muramxx
11.08.2012 , 02:03 AM | #501
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
No, people are saying you can play as you like, but you -have- to understand choosing solo queue is putting less effort into PvP then forming a team and coordinating. If someone beats you, it's because their better. Simple concept.

Now if you want a solo only bracket so you're facing weaker competition (and thus less effort) then your rewards need to be lesser.

OR, as DarthRakia has said (and I agree) you should focus on asking for a better match making system within the current, fully inclusive queue system.
You really belive that a PUG vs a PUG group takes less efforet then a premade vs a PUG? or a PREmade vs a Premade. That made me laugh. first we all know a premade vs a PUG the PUG group will win around 1 out of 25ish times going by all that people post and going off my own experience. So obviously there if your in a PUG it actually takes more effort to win a game and get 130 coms, because with no effort you walk away with what 50? So yeah PUG's do have to fight harder and there is deffinately more of a challenge in playing on a team like I had tonight with 6 Mercs and no healers VS a premade group that had 2 healers. Funny thing is we won and if you think it was just a cake walk well it wasn't. The random group you get stuck with most often times is one of the roughest groups the que could put together. So in that instance to say PUGs are easy street you are wrong.

PUG vs PUG (which most the people want a real "solo" que for) you never know what will happen. sometimes you get what you need sometimes you don't sometimes it's close sometimes it's a blow it. PUG VS PUG is like playing russian rulette. You get a sh***y group and then that one guy that belongs on everyone ignore list leaves because he doesn't like what he gets. You know what 7 craptastic classes mixed together vs 8 that could be good or bad is still a fight the team that loses is the one that can't communicate. If you think comunicating and trying to get your idea through to someone on a different page is hard look at the forums and with a straight face tell me PUGs are so much easier to get get what you need then joinging up with the same people for a few hours everyday playing the same 4 WZ's. At some point you are all going to be on the same page knowing what each other is going to do without having to say it. It's either that or be one of the worst premade groups ever.

Then you have the Premades VS the Premades. Such a scary concept for most it appears having to actually play against people that are in WH gear just like you. The real reason ranked failed, why do rank when you can go in and spank a bunch of people that have recruit gear on and get your 130 comms vs having a chance of it happening to you and only getting 50? The challenge that the PUGs are dying to have, where they can go into a game and not know what to expect, Is the other team going to be better, the same or worse? Rather then ROFLstomped. All the PVP guilds and a lot of the premade groups are looking for that speciffic class, the guy with the right gear or whatever, yet they demand that those players that are lesser "form your own groups." That would basicly be a step up from a pug but a step down from a WH group that has been working together for months, you would still stomp the crap out of them. But like I said people complain about how boring it is to keep killing all the baddies in PUG's yet for some reason most of them are against Premades VS Premades. So maybe you can answer that question for me. If crushing the PUGs is so boring and just sucks then why are all the "Elites" so afraid of playing against other "Elites"?

LenrocNewDawn's Avatar


LenrocNewDawn
11.08.2012 , 02:43 AM | #502
The concept it's simple really. How the hell it eludes you guys baffles me. Don't let Ferrari compete against Fiat. This is not about effort put in it's about paying same amount of money and expecting same amount of fun. I'm not working for BW so they evaluate my work and compensate me accordingly. Actually BW gets more value out of its casual costumers if you want to talk money. I'm the costumer and I pay for a product that promises to deliver entertainment. If the exchange it's not mutually beneficial then we have a problem, well the seller has a problem.
Get over yourself cause this is not about you or me or your pre-made vs my PuG, it's about fun, enjoyment and balance. Achieve those and a s***load of problems will just disappear.
“Being defeated is often a temporary condition. Giving up is what makes it permanent.”

Ycoga's Avatar


Ycoga
11.08.2012 , 04:50 AM | #503
Starcraft2 has a good ranking system; you play a few tester matches and then get put into a league. You can then migrate up or down leagues from there depending on your actual skill levels.

Hint hint, bw!
'Pre-2.0 PvP... The gear gap was too big and some players became non-contributors quickly because of the gear gap. It wasn’t fun for the majority of players' - Alex Modny

Atramar's Avatar


Atramar
11.08.2012 , 04:54 AM | #504
Quote: Originally Posted by Ycoga View Post
Starcraft2 has a good ranking system; you play a few tester matches and then get put into a league. You can then migrate up or down leagues from there depending on your actual skill levels.

Hint hint, bw!
how would you account skill in SWTOR? between tanks, healers and dps?
smashers and stealth ninja cappers?
Tracer Legacy, The Red Eclipse.
Not reading colored text, it hurts my eyes. Sorry (unless it's a dev post)
L55:Sniper,Operative,Juggernaut,Assassin,Marauder, Powertech,Guardian,Commando,Scoundrel
to finish:Shadow(41),Sage(53),Merc(39). 29.07.2013

Veniras's Avatar


Veniras
11.08.2012 , 05:09 AM | #505
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
In essense, isn't a split queue designed to lower the effort a PuG must put in to win?
Pugs Vs pugs demands much more of each player than premade vs pugs does.

The premades does routine, thr pugs on the premade team coasts, and the pug team has no need to put in effort sd they are likely outgeared.

Letting premades meet pugs will end in a lower PVP population as it will DRIVE AWAY pugs. Both regulars and new players.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.08.2012 , 07:10 AM | #506
@Marumax: Let's do a few numbers...

Premader: Finds 1-3 other people an groups up. Often they've also found a guild and contribute to that. Coordinates with their team both before, after, and during a match.

PuG: Hit's solo queue button.

Which one put in more effort? Which one has the higher probability to win?

@Veniras: But the conversation is PuG vs. PuG being split from Premade vs. Premade. It's already been determined that Premades win because they have better coordination and have spent the time building ties with other players. Ie. They are playing better, and their competition will play better. A premader's average skill level is higher than a pug. (Though there are some terrible premaders out there, and some awesome PuG's.)

Thus, in the proposed system Premade vs. Premade will be the higher competition, and the PuG vs. PuG (aka, casual bracket) will be the lower competition. If you're playing in the kiddy pool, why do you get the same amount of comms as those playing in the deep end?

<.< which is why we need a better matchmaking system that tries to match premade vs premade first, then does a combination of Premade and pug, and not the overly suggested idea of the Big boy bracket and the kiddy bracket.

Ycoga's Avatar


Ycoga
11.08.2012 , 07:23 AM | #507
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
@Marumax: Let's do a few numbers...

Premader: Finds 1-3 other people an groups up. Often they've also found a guild and contribute to that. Coordinates with their team both before, after, and during a match.

PuG: Hit's solo queue button.

Which one put in more effort? Which one has the higher probability to win?
Just stop already, your psuedo intellecualism is transparent and it fails hard.
'Pre-2.0 PvP... The gear gap was too big and some players became non-contributors quickly because of the gear gap. It wasn’t fun for the majority of players' - Alex Modny

Wainamoinen's Avatar


Wainamoinen
11.08.2012 , 07:25 AM | #508
Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post
You did a pretty good job of picking what you wanted to hear out of the post and ignoring the rest of it wtg.... your point is irrelevant.
No, it isn't.

I hadn't realised your complaints of having your PvP play being ruined were based on sub50 PvP. It hadn't even crossed my mind as a possibility, and I imagine that goes for some others. This is why I wanted to be sure that sub50 PvP was really what you were talking about, and I picked out the parts that referred to it.

It seems unlikely to me that sub50 PvP is being ruined by premades.

Firstly, all the classes will be missing vital abilities before they reach 50 (no guardian leap/intercede for guardians/juggs in huttball, for instance). Secondly, many classes are pretty poor at their role before hitting certain levels (op/sco healers don't start great). This means that organised groups won't be able to function in the way they do at level50.

Secondly, I don't see that many people who have level 50s are going to be running premades in sub50 when they could be doing it at... level50. Friends who both have a character they're levelling may queue together for PvP, but that's a pretty marginal definition of a premade.

Thirdly, like I said, when I've queued at sub50 I simply haven't seen premades owning faces. This is only my own experience, it may be different on your server.

My main irritation with sub50 PvP is the rank incompetence on display. But given the fact that it's full of people who aren't familiar with PvP, the maps, or their characters (who are missing many key abilities as they're not levelled high enough), I try not to let myself get annoyed. It's not really fair. I'll try to bite my tongue and calmly advise people that standing on the top of our ramp when a jugg with the ball is coming is a bad tactical plan. I may have seen it a hundred times, they haven't and know no better.

Basic competence and a character approaching 50 should be enough to see you ruling in sub50 PvP, premades should be no concern. I wonder whether the complaints you've seen about premades have made you think that that's what you're seeing in sub50. I could be wrong, and maybe your server is full of organised four-man teams bullying sub50 PvP on alts instead of playing in level50 warzones. I don't know, it confuses me.

I'd agree with you that F2P players trying their minimal allowed PvP games, who then get crucified a few times, may not hurry back to it. It would be good if Bioware could scoop these blinking kittens out of the way of the oncoming juggernaut (whether he has the ball or not) and let them learn the ropes a bit first. Hence matchmaking being a good idea, imo.
It's a small world and it smells funny, I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money.
Ilmarinen 55 Scoundrel (Red Eclipse)

MelodicSixNine's Avatar


MelodicSixNine
11.08.2012 , 07:39 AM | #509
Quote:
Thus, in the proposed system Premade vs. Premade will be the higher competition, and the PuG vs. PuG (aka, casual bracket) will be the lower competition. If you're playing in the kiddy pool, why do you get the same amount of comms as those playing in the deep end?
Puggs shouldn't get just as many rewards as premades. Fully agree. But do premades deserve same rewards as PUGs for playing vs PUGs and winning? No they don't as they faced less organised bunch of people and their chances of winning were much higher. See? Works both ways.

That's why premades belong in ranked. People should group up, put more effort into winning and get epeen meter in form of rating, easier to get ranked comms, prestige colored gear and use NWZ as only training or relaxation from stressing matches in RWZ or just fking around while you wait on your mates(would be even cooler if BW implemented possibility of joining empty WZ and train 4vs4 without rewards).

Adding 4-man groups to ranked would solve biggest problem of finding 4 more people. 4 people is already a team who can coop with other 4 people just fine. Maybe ranked would finally start off thanks to this change. BW we need that cross server que for ranked too...

Justifying premades in NWZ is just terrible and got a bit out of hand in this thread imo

Veniras's Avatar


Veniras
11.08.2012 , 08:10 AM | #510
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
@Veniras: But the conversation is PuG vs. PuG being split from Premade vs. Premade. It's already been determined that Premades win because they have better coordination and have spent the time building ties with other players. Ie. They are playing better, and their competition will play better. A premader's average skill level is higher than a pug..
A skilled premader has an average lower skill than a skilled pug. The pugger has had to adapt to better spatioal awareness, not being able to rely on the teammates doing exactly what he is expecting them to do and not having a know team composition.

Basically, a skilled pugger has had more challenges than a skilled premader. Hence, better.