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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

otherworlder's Avatar


otherworlder
07.17.2013 , 10:30 AM | #4961
Quote: Originally Posted by DimeStax View Post
So you agree then that random group forming through an all solo-que system will not give you the fairness and balance that you desire, it will make things just a little more random. Not to mention, you and your wife will hardly ever be able to play together on the same team. The answer for you isn't in advocating a solo-que system, it should be in advocating a match-making system that divides teams based on Honor, expertise, and maybe roles.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I agree with most of what you just said.

If the separate queues became a real deal, my wife and I would be playing with other premades (2s, 3s and 4s). But I'm okay with that, because that probably means better overall competition and less random stupidity. If our queue times got longer, well... that's a price I'm willing to pay for the health of the game, because in the final analysis more people happily pvping = good for TOR. And the bigger the pvp population gets, the faster everyone's queues will pop.

Plus, unlike a lot of the premade defenders in here, I enjoy playing with my friends regardless of whether I'm teamed up with them or fighting against them. If my wife and I solo queued and ended up on opposite sides of the red line, we'd just be trash talking each other from across the room.

The current system, for whatever reason, is not working. Queues are getting longer and longer, people are not pvping as actively as they used to. The 55 bracket is passed up for lowbie brackets (I myself do this because otherwise I won't get a match to pop regularly during the weird hours I play). It's not sustainable and it needs help. The friendlier the game is to casuals, the better things will get for everyone. If the minority has to sacrifice something to make that happen, then I'm okay with that.

And matchmaking, while a technically better solution, won't work in this game because the populations on all but 2 of the servers are just too small. If they ever find a way for their busted engine to handle cross-server queues, then matchmaking could work. As it stands now, we'll just end up in the same place because the pool of pvpers is usually too small at any one time.

cashogy_reborn's Avatar


cashogy_reborn
07.17.2013 , 10:30 AM | #4962
here ill post this again

Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
anyone that thinks a solo-only queue is going to solve any problems, please read this multiple times so you can understand why it *will not solve your problem*


what is the biggest complaint here? the SUPER QUEUE GROUP, ie two 4-man teams that sync up so that can be a full 8-man premade in regs. this is very, very easy to do b/c the queue is simply first come, first serve. you funnel it down a few times, and BAM youre groups are synced and you can have an 8-man premade in regs.

lets say that a solo-only queue is introduced. how long before 4 players sync their solo-queues in order to get a "premade" into the solo-only queue? it will not be difficult to do, and yet we will have the same situation we currently have, and will be back to square one (people complaining about premades vs pugs).


a solo-only queue is a short-term, near sighted solution.
skill based matchmaking is a long term solution that will have actual positive results
Dany - Attomm - Dan'y - Fogel
The Original Stormborn Commando Representative
The King of Bads

otherworlder's Avatar


otherworlder
07.17.2013 , 10:37 AM | #4963
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
here ill post this again
Most of us have already agreed with the above, friend, in one form or another.

Until the populations get bigger or they implement x-server queues, no solution is really going to change much about the current metagame in PvP (though a solo-only toggle would certainly improve same faction matches). Which means the only way for us to get more diverse player pools in there for us to shoot at is to make sure they aren't driven off in spades the moment they set foot in a WZ.

You guys can hate on the 'bads' and try to blame them all you want, but without that vast pool of players enjoying the game, we'll have no one else to play with soon enough. You have to learn to accomodate your fellow man or your premades are not going to have much to do but sit on the fleet like they did before ftp went live.

DimeStax's Avatar


DimeStax
07.17.2013 , 10:50 AM | #4964
Quote: Originally Posted by otherworlder View Post
Most of us have already agreed with the above, friend, in one form or another.

Until the populations get bigger or they implement x-server queues, no solution is really going to change much about the current metagame in PvP (though a solo-only toggle would certainly improve same faction matches). Which means the only way for us to get more diverse player pools in there for us to shoot at is to make sure they aren't driven off in spades the moment they set foot in a WZ.

You guys can hate on the 'bads' and try to blame them all you want, but without that vast pool of players enjoying the game, we'll have no one else to play with soon enough. You have to learn to accomodate your fellow man or your premades are not going to have much to do but sit on the fleet like they did before ftp went live.
I don't understand your logic though. You say that people are not PvPing and causing long queue times because premades are ruining the 55 bracket, and your solution is to split up the queue brackets even more and increase the queue times even longer? I don't follow.
Sakz <Good Talk> 55 Guardian - The Bastion
Dimes <Good Talk> 55 Gunslinger - The Bastion
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otherworlder's Avatar


otherworlder
07.17.2013 , 11:03 AM | #4965
Quote: Originally Posted by DimeStax View Post
I don't understand your logic though. You say that people are not PvPing and causing long queue times because premades are ruining the 55 bracket, and your solution is to split up the queue brackets even more and increase the queue times even longer? I don't follow.
The trouble is that it only takes 1 or 2 good roflstompings by a premade team to drive off a casual pvper for a night. If that happens too many nights in a row or in a given week, that player is probably gone for good from that aspect of the game.

Queue times are getting awful now because that's pretty much already happened. What's left are the hardcore solo q'ers who are willing to take the beatings with the wins, the few new casuals who cycle up, and the premades / heavy pvp guilds. That's not sustainable now any more than it was when the game was in dire straits before ftp.

One of the solutions was to implement a toggle so that players could request they only be queued along with others who select the same toggle-----solo only. This would guarantee no premade teams and increase the odds of the goods/bads being distributed more evenly in matches (especially same faction matches). It would also encourage the more freewheeling give and take battles and node flipping some find more enjoyable.

That said, on smaller pop servers, this would only really work in same faction matches and even still would be susceptible to cheats. But having the option might bring back more of those casuals who swore off the pvp, and the bigger the population got the better that system would work.

The 'normal' queue would remain as it is---solo queuers who don't mind facing premades could still queue just as they used to. The real question is whether the queues would get faster for the solo-only players and slower for the premades (as Blizzard's data has suggested), or just slower for everyone.

Do I think it's an ideal solution? Not really. It'd be at best a bandaid that would hopefully attract back some of the people who gave up. What's really needed is X-Server queuing.

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
07.17.2013 , 11:31 AM | #4966
Quote: Originally Posted by maverickmatt View Post
To that I say:




This is from the PoT5 Forums, from a thread called "Couldn't Do It With Legend"

It goes to show that competitive teams don't give half a damn about regs. He even EXPLICITLY says so. We are farming material to them.

They do not belong in my queue, and they should be removed.. through matchmaking or otherwise.

You DO have to understand, though, that the simplest solution is often the best solution. The simplest solution is split queues. (not my personal view, just the fact).
I REALLY hope we're not judging the entire premade population by a handful of LD50's biggest trolls. Terrible mechanics are terrible, it doesn't take a premade to wallbang people. In fact, it doesn't even take a wall anymore.
I have opinions and stuff

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
07.17.2013 , 11:47 AM | #4967
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy_reborn View Post
what is the biggest complaint here? the SUPER QUEUE GROUP,
that's not nearly the biggest complaint, but it is the most abusive, cheating thing that a grp can do. followed by prolonging matches to grief/farm the overmatched opponents.

no. the complaint I see most is that the 4 best players are able to guarantee that they are always on the same team.

actually, the complaint I see most is that voice comms is this huge advantage, but that's not the case. voice is only a determining factor if the WZ is otherwise close/balanced to begin with, which it is not if the 4 best players are on the same team all the time.

when it comes to matchmaking, you are correct, there is A LOT to be desired. two grps of 4 should never be placed on the same team when the opponents lack a 4m (or maybe a 3m? some sort of premade). this is particularly aggravating when we're dealing with same faction matches. HOWEVER, the double-premade (inadvertent "superQ") is a relatively rare event.

solo Qs do two undisputable things that are good:
  • prevent the possibility of a superQ (whether intentional or otherwise)
  • randomize grp comps so that nobody can artificially tilt the field by stacking the best 4 ppl on the same team every game. Note that random means random. it does not mean balanced. the best players can still land the same team, but they cannot guarantee that they will.

as an aside for the ppl who claim their premades carry solo queuers, you need solos more than solos need you. remember that. when your team is down a man or two...it's never another premade that fills in. same for the start of a match. this all leads me to....

neither of these issues addresses my major beef, which mostly affects solo Qers and completely abuses them: back fill. a solo Qer is 99% more likely to get pulled into an in-progress WZ than a grp of 2 or more. before they do one more *((&(ing thing with queues, they should give ppl a choice about taking in-progress WZs. BACK FILL IS A CROCK OF BANTHA DROPPINGS. FIX THIS.
A legacy of meh
Krackerjšck/Krackerjak (VG/PT) | Krackerjack/Deinon (Mando/Merc) | Dežnon (Jugg) | other stuffs
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TL;DR Bolster is meant to help entry level players, ranked PvP is not entry level PvP.

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
07.17.2013 , 11:51 AM | #4968
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
I REALLY hope we're not judging the entire premade population by a handful of LD50's biggest trolls. Terrible mechanics are terrible, it doesn't take a premade to wallbang people. In fact, it doesn't even take a wall anymore.
devil is the one who's behavior he was addressing. and he's very much NOT an LD50 guy. I think that's a problem limited to Po5 and maybe The Bastion, however.
A legacy of meh
Krackerjšck/Krackerjak (VG/PT) | Krackerjack/Deinon (Mando/Merc) | Dežnon (Jugg) | other stuffs
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TL;DR Bolster is meant to help entry level players, ranked PvP is not entry level PvP.

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
07.17.2013 , 12:25 PM | #4969
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
devil is the one who's behavior he was addressing. and he's very much NOT an LD50 guy. I think that's a problem limited to Po5 and maybe The Bastion, however.
I didn't go back to the thread and check, that has just predominantly been what that thread is about. Devil has made no secret of his abuse of this mechanic in regs while he is trying to get BW to fix it, however. My point is, everyone knows this mechanic is terrible, but it can be used by anyone and has no bearing on the premade argument.

The post I was referring to was in regards to ranked players not abusing mechanics in ranked, but using them in regs. To which I would say, there is no guarantee that the other side won't be using the same mechanics in regs, but certain ranked teams have agreed not to use it against each other (obviously not the case btw since it's being used by at least 1 guild). There is no way in a reg match to agree what you will and will not do, so you use what's available. The same went for bolster bugging before purple crafted items were fixed (and yes, that was still abused in ranked too).
I have opinions and stuff

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
07.17.2013 , 12:42 PM | #4970
Quote: Originally Posted by otherworlder View Post
If solo puggers had their own dedicated queue, the casuals that dominate the populations of MMO pvp would have a safe place to play where they can just catass around and have mindless fun (which is the direction gaming is going in the modern world anyway). Instead this vast majority of players get alienated and leave, and we (the hardcore pvpers) lose the money they would have brought to the game. Queue times dry up, everyone loses.

The only ones losing if they separate the queues are premades, who are a very small minority in mmo pvp. I'm comfortable with that. So are industry leaders like Blizzard, who realize that alienating the bulk of your pvp base to satisfy the desires of the few hurts your bottom line.
I'm going to respond to the two bolded parts:

First Bolded: Have to agree with this statement, simply because casual =/= PuG. Not all Casuals are PuGs, and not al PuG's are casual. I did a figurative estimate a few pages back, when something like this;

Assuming a majority split of even 70% casuals and 30% non-casual, you then have to divide those casuals by pug/grouped. A 50/50 split puts 35% of the population as casual PuGs. Even if you assume all casual PuGs are in favor of the split queue, that still puts 65% of the population either against it, or indifferent (Non-casual PuGs).

Truth is, we do not have these numbers/statistics, and those claiming (for a fact!) casual PuG's are the majority are (frankly) pulling it out of their backside. Yes, you could manipulate the figurative numbers above and probably get close to 50% in favor, but that's really not the point. You do not know, I do not know, and trying to play the "majority" card on this isn't going to work because simply... we do not know.

As for the comments about that Blizzard Dev post: It's Irrelevant, Blizzard is not Bioware, we do not have their numbers, their BG/PvP system, their servers, etc... They may be an "industry leader," it does not make them the end all be all in the MMO world. If you like, I'll also find the post where a Dev says Arena's were the biggest mistake to ever happen to WoW.

Finally on that; Premades may be a "small minority" of the PvP community, groups, trios, and duo's are not.


Now for my own point: Yes, there are points where matchmaking becomes in effective... those points are also where Split queue's become in effective as well. The difference is, where matchmaking puts an uneven match together, Split queue's put's nothing together.

I think I've done this example (over and over) but:

Say you're at a critical low population with 32 players available. 15 pugs, 17 group players (3 4-mans, 1 3-man, 1 2-man) of varying skill levels. Matchmaking creates 2 matches (eventually) with all 32 players. Hopefully it pulls 4-man + 4 pugs vs 4-man + 4 pugs, and 4-man+4pugs vs 3-man + 2-man + 3 Pugs. or something of the sort.

Split queues provides no match for either side.

Outsider: O.o but Doom, that's a grossly over complicated, specific, unlikely to happen example. Besides everyone knows there's more Pugs than groups!

Alright, 32 players again, 20 pugs and 3 4-mans.

Of course, 16 pugs get to play which is sweet. But 12 grouped players and 4 pugs (16) are sitting out. 12 f them have an indefinite queue time, and 4 of them cycle in every 10-15 minutes.

Throw in 2's and 3's, into that, and you're stuck with a logistical cluster-**** in the group queue, all so PuG's can get stomped by each other instead of a "Premade." It's just bad sense to go for a "Simple Solution" that hurts more than it helps and doesn't actually solve the root problems of stomping/advantages.
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