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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

DarthRaika's Avatar


DarthRaika
07.10.2013 , 11:08 PM | #4481
Doom, I know you support matchmaking but what I was pointing out was a flaw in your argument. Also, if your argument above was true then that would be less reason for matchmaking to exist. I know you gave other reasons but my point is why would you want to argue that.

What you are saying is wrong though imo. Also, btw, I like many of your opinions and I am not attacking you just arguing against one of your points.

When college teams go out recruiting they don't just grab random high school students. Sure these random kids might be great but many of them won't be. They CHOOSE based on a lot of criteria. That choice is the difference. Premades have this choice, pugs do not. Imagine if most football teams were assigned random graduating high school students while others stayed as is. That would be hilarious to watch for a few games but it would be a horrible experience for most of the schools.

maverickmatt's Avatar


maverickmatt
07.10.2013 , 11:08 PM | #4482
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Not really getting into the rest of your conversation with Jade, but I wanted to comment on this piece.

Whether we wanna call it skill, attitude, competitive level, etc... it really is a skill-based issue. With the exception of voice-chat, every advantage used by a Premade (using the highly-competitive group definition here) is (commonly) available to a PuG group. The advantages usually listed are: Gear, Coordination, Composition, Skilled, Voice Chat.

Gear: Everyone has equal access to gear, starting from level 40.

Coordination: Players who want to coordinate, will. This includes deciding which node to take, burning down healers, etc... There is no reason besides a lack of skill (or attitude) -not- to coordinate your efforts in a team environment.

Composition: 6 of 8 classes have two possible roles, and everyone should have access to the legacy respec. (I'm looking at it right now, it's Legacy Level 5 and 200k credits. Not unrealistic at all for people to have by 55). Let's not go into the probability of getting 8 marauders or 8 snipers. Chances are, of the 8 people on your team 2 should be able to respec to heals and 1-2 tank.

The only advantage left that isn't a reflection of skill/competitive level/effort/skittles is voice chat. Sadly, there is nothing that can be done about voice chat (except to add it in game) because it is out of Bioware's sphere of influence. You can't stop voice chat from being present in a community, can't control who has it, or what it's being used for unless you specifically control the program.
I see and acknowledge your point, though I disagree fundamentally.
Essentially what's being said is that Dedication > Fun. At the root of many posts I see, "MY DEDICATION IZ MUCHLY BETTERER DEN UR FUNZ. IF U DNT LIK LOOZING, L2P N B MOAR DEDICATED".

It should NEVER be that.... ever. It's a game, and people want to have fun. You could argue that it's fun for some to premade in regs and steamroll to easy wins, but to that point I would say that you cannot indulge those people. By your (impersonal) own admission, Premades are the minority... not to mention that taking the easy path at the expense of others is at the very least morally reprehensible.

Quote:
I'd like to make my own point now:

I see often that you make sure that people know you (and possibly others) don't have problems with groups, it's the highly competitive premades that are the issue. Why then is the solution a blanket solution that effects all groups, if it is a very -specific- kind of group that's the issue. Isn't that kind shooting the innocent to get the "guilty?"
I have no answer for this. You are correct... I wish I could elaborate, or make a counterpoint... but there is none.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
07.10.2013 , 11:24 PM | #4483
Quote: Originally Posted by maverickmatt View Post
I see and acknowledge your point, though I disagree fundamentally.

Essentially what's being said is that Dedication > Fun. At the root of many posts I see, "MY DEDICATION IZ MUCHLY BETTERER DEN UR FUNZ. IF U DNT LIK LOOZING, L2P N B MOAR DEDICATED".

It should NEVER be that.... ever. It's a game, and people want to have fun. You could argue that it's fun for some to premade in regs and steamroll to easy wins, but to that point I would say that you cannot indulge those people. By your (impersonal) own admission, Premades are the minority... not to mention that taking the easy path at the expense of others is at the very least morally reprehensible.
I also see your point. I am coming to understand that although to me, Dedication/Investment and Fun are the same thing, the same does not hold true across the entire player base. (Though I never have that terrible of spelling, I'm insulted! Just kidding...). I can only hope a solution can be found that suits both "camps." I believe traditionally MMO's are more suited towards Invested players by design but... as this is a business, times change.

Those changes need to target the heart of the problem though.
Player Responsibility: Players have the responsibility to strive for improvement before asking for changes.
Player Accountability: Insufficient credits, lack of gear, poor reputation, and inability to compete is the price of laziness, incompetence, and/or unwillingness.

DariusCalera's Avatar


DariusCalera
07.10.2013 , 11:47 PM | #4484
Quote: Originally Posted by maverickmatt View Post
I see and acknowledge your point, though I disagree fundamentally.
Essentially what's being said is that Dedication > Fun. At the root of many posts I see, "MY DEDICATION IZ MUCHLY BETTERER DEN UR FUNZ. IF U DNT LIK LOOZING, L2P N B MOAR DEDICATED".

It should NEVER be that.... ever. It's a game, and people want to have fun. You could argue that it's fun for some to premade in regs and steamroll to easy wins, but to that point I would say that you cannot indulge those people. By your (impersonal) own admission, Premades are the minority... not to mention that taking the easy path at the expense of others is at the very least morally reprehensible.

[I'd like to make my own point now:

I see often that you make sure that people know you (and possibly others) don't have problems with groups, it's the highly competitive premades that are the issue. Why then is the solution a blanket solution that effects all groups, if it is a very -specific- kind of group that's the issue. Isn't that kind shooting the innocent to get the "guilty?"

I have no answer for this. You are correct... I wish I could elaborate, or make a counterpoint... but there is none.
Well, the fix that a lot of people have suggested is the match making system which would insure that those highly competitive groups would only be facing players of near equal ranking. It would also insure that those players that are new to 55 PvP would only be facing players at their rank level as well.

Yes, players of all ranks might still run into premades but you would not have those highly competitive premades stomping a group of fresh 55s.

Sharee's Avatar


Sharee
07.11.2013 , 12:08 AM | #4485
Quote: Originally Posted by sirullrich View Post
So you admit pugs are bad and looking for an easy way out.
What you fail to realize is that not fighting premades is not an "easy way out" for the pugs. There is nothing easy about a match where both sides are equally skilled. Regardless of whether they are equally good or equally bad, the match will be a close one, far from easy.

The only truly easymode fighting is the premades farming the PUGs. So i find it highly ironic when a premade supporter claims preventing his premade from farming pugs is dumbing the game down. Because it's the exact opposite, as it ensures all PVP participants fight in difficult (for them) fights.

maverickmatt's Avatar


maverickmatt
07.11.2013 , 12:10 AM | #4486
Quote: Originally Posted by DariusCalera View Post
Well, the fix that a lot of people have suggested is the match making system which would insure that those highly competitive groups would only be facing players of near equal ranking. It would also insure that those players that are new to 55 PvP would only be facing players at their rank level as well.

Yes, players of all ranks might still run into premades but you would not have those highly competitive premades stomping a group of fresh 55s.
I also agree with the matchmaking, and have said as much. However, the time delay is a serious issue, and something has to be adjusted in the interim. You'd need at least a month to get initial data, and maybe 3 months to gather sufficient data on a majority of the population to install an effective system.

My fear of matchmaking is that Bioware will be unable to implement it properly (Bolster, anyone?).

DariusCalera's Avatar


DariusCalera
07.11.2013 , 12:18 AM | #4487
Quote: Originally Posted by maverickmatt View Post
I also agree with the matchmaking, and have said as much. However, the time delay is a serious issue, and something has to be adjusted in the interim. You'd need at least a month to get initial data, and maybe 3 months to gather sufficient data on a majority of the population to install an effective system.

My fear of matchmaking is that Bioware will be unable to implement it properly (Bolster, anyone?).
An interim, and by no means perfect solution, would be to first group people by valor ranking until a better match making system is put into place.

Yes, I know that all valor represents is time spent in WZs, but until an accurate ranking system was implemented it should work.

Sharee's Avatar


Sharee
07.11.2013 , 12:33 AM | #4488
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
There is a situation in which one kind of play-style (while still capable of playing) is often disadvantaged, to the point that it isn't "fun" to most of them. I agree that (despite personal feelings about that play style) there needs to be a more level, fair situation for that play style.

That solution though, can not be one that imposes a different unfair situation on another play-style, or that solution is just as bad as the current one. In a Split queue/toggle solution, population is divided/reduced and match forming suffers logistical issues in the regular queue (a reduction in the number of 1's makes forming 8 out of a combination of 2's, 3's, and 4's more difficult, up to and including the lack of a match from impossible combinations).
Is it just as bad tho? Let's see:

First situation: Players are put into matches that they do not wish to participate in, just so that other players can have their fun.

Second situation: Players who want to play certain way can't because there are not enough opponents.

Which one of them is worse? I'd say the first one, without doubt. Why? because in the second one, no players are being held hostage for the fun of others.

Example: You have 8 kids on the beach. 7 want to play volleyball together, but they need an 8th player for that. One just wants to be alone and build a sand castle. Is it right to force the one who wanted to make a castle to instead join the 7 so they can have their fun? No its not.

The "wrongness" of someone being forced to do something he does not want or enjoy doing just so that others can have their fun is much worse than the "wrongness" of 7 players not being able to play because they dont have enough players.

Vaerah's Avatar


Vaerah
07.11.2013 , 12:48 AM | #4489
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
I believe that a PuG ranked team -can- be equal to a premade one. It is unlikely, but not impossible. Especially if both teams are playing at the maximum level of play.
Come on, are you playing on an alien server? PUG and "maximum level of play" are an oxymoron.

Also, this is not Guild Wars, gear here has a tremendous impact on outcome, 8 WZs out of 10 I end up "matched" with 25k people who die in 3 hits vs normal PUGgers and die in 1 global cool down vs a 4 men.

Maybe Bastion & POT5 are super servers, on mine the "PUG equal premade" does not happen but once per 100 WZs.
It's a permanent, every day, every SINGLE day queueing up, waiting 10 minutes to 40 minutes, end in the same AH with the same faces against people who ALL deal 3 times as much damage, kills and so on.
Yesterday it was JAPAN premade + another premade, 2 days ago it was another, tomorrow will be IRS + White Noise / whatever, it's still heavy perma-farm of the same 25k noobs.

Those who don't have 25k and maybe have some more experience, get disheartened and quit playing. I have unsubbed 2 months ago and I am going to unsub again, because I want to FIGHT 8v8, not be FARMED 1v8.

What's good topping the reps score when still getting farmed like a pig and winning nothing?

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
07.11.2013 , 12:51 AM | #4490
Quote: Originally Posted by Sharee View Post
Is it just as bad tho? Let's see:

First situation: Players are put into matches that they do not wish to participate in, just so that other players can have their fun.

Second situation: Players who want to play certain way can't because there are not enough opponents.

Which one of them is worse? I'd say the first one, without doubt. Why? because in the second one, no players are being held hostage for the fun of others.

Example: You have 8 kids on the beach. 7 want to play volleyball together, but they need an 8th player for that. One just wants to be alone and build a sand castle. Is it right to force the one who wanted to make a castle to instead join the 7 so they can have their fun? No its not.

The "wrongness" of someone being forced to do something he does not want or enjoy doing just so that others can have their fun is much worse than the "wrongness" of 7 players not being able to play because they dont have enough players.
Uh... No.

Not even gonna touch that example, it's a piss poor one.

We have 1 common space (regular warzones).

Everyone wants to use it.

Some people don't want specific others to use it (against them).

That's the situation we have. Not some poor kid wanting to play Sand Castle.

No one is forced to play in a Warzone, they choose to hit the queue button. They just don't like what happens when they do. I think steps should be taken to make it more enjoyable for these people. Those steps can't come at the cost of the common space, or anyone who is currently happily using the common space with others.

If you wanna use an example involving kids... they teach that **** in Kindergarten. The kid not sharing isn't the one that get's his own separate slide.
Player Responsibility: Players have the responsibility to strive for improvement before asking for changes.
Player Accountability: Insufficient credits, lack of gear, poor reputation, and inability to compete is the price of laziness, incompetence, and/or unwillingness.