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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

TheronFett's Avatar


TheronFett
11.28.2012 , 04:14 PM | #1331
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
...TL;DR The problem isn't that people are playing together, it's that the skill level on both sides is not equal therefore a solo queue does not resolve the core issue.
Your entire post brings up good points, and from a philosophical point of view, I agree completely. However, for all intents and purposes, you're also dead wrong. The problem is that your reasoning is based entirely on individual player skill level. A premade of bad players is more often than not, going to lose to a PUG of better players.

This is objective-based, team PvP. While player skill and gear are important, they fall 3rd and 4th on the list compared to coordination and communication. THERE is the real advantage of a premade. The issue then compounds and builds upon itself because it's typically the more skilled and better geared players who form premades in the first place. 4 so-so players who coordinate and play well as a team will dominate a PUG of better players all day long. Teamwork completes objectives and wins games. Not the teams of "good" players who run around dominating everyone else.

Pvtcarnage's Avatar


Pvtcarnage
11.28.2012 , 04:24 PM | #1332
Quote: Originally Posted by HuaRya View Post
Which is more of a reason to have a solo queue and a group queue.

The only reason guildsters/premade even pollute this thread is that they know if there was a separated Group and Solo Queue that their group would have to work much harder and inevitably win less matches and medals.
That suggestion is just plain dumb, it's been explained why in many different ways so go re-read. And while your at it name one MMO that does this.

Whats with this non-stop "I'm a victim" attitude?, grow a pair and step up to the plate, Or get stepped on buy those that do.
"Equality is a perversion of the natural order!…It binds the strong to the weak. They [the weak] become anchors that drag the exceptional down to mediocrity. Individuals destined and deserving of greatness have it denied them.
-Darth Bane

Tyrias's Avatar


Tyrias
11.28.2012 , 04:31 PM | #1333
Quote: Originally Posted by Arlanon View Post
Aha, you fell into my trap. Even in full Rakata gear, me vs Soa is not an "appropriate opponent". In order to defeat Soa, I must join a PREMADE TEAM to take him down. This premade team must work together and coordinate their efforts in order to succeed.

PvP is no different there. I challenge you to prove otherwise. You are arguing simply for the sake of arguing.
Well that's easy, You have absolutely no requirement to join a premade to defeat Soa. You just queue up as a solo in the group finder, and you'll get a group.

This most-definitely-NOT-premade team must work together still, just as PUG teams must work together in PvP. There is no literal requirement to premade though, as you are suggesting. Perhaps you should lay your traps better in future.
"If you've got a problem, stick a worm in it".

YaanaOhtar's Avatar


YaanaOhtar
11.28.2012 , 04:34 PM | #1334
I disagree, in this pvp if we consider people know what to do, then gear play the utmost important part. If you are PUG and have 3 player that hp lower than 17k; meeting a premade - i dont know about others server or side, but the premade i met were all WH + full aug - you have 80% of losing. I doubt any premade that accept player has hp lower than 17k well unless they farming for their guildmate which i think that is the reason why premade often appear in PUG, or they want to stock up medal for the up coming pvp equips.

I dont think Bioware will change this set up, unless they can divide player into different group base on their equip or skill. I mean banning premade on regular wz will prevent regular players want to fight with their friend, so they have to depend the decency of players to not picking on lower level which like hoping money grow from tree.

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
11.28.2012 , 04:37 PM | #1335
Quote: Originally Posted by Arlanon View Post
Problem:
You PuG and fail.

Solution (this is manyfold so try to keep up, ok?):
Make friends
Join a guild with PvP players (optional, but recommended)
Join a Vent/Mumble/Teamspeak/Skype/etc with guild or whoever you are in warzone with
Practice, study, duel, learn what works well, not only for your own class but for all classes
Coordinate assaults, always be mindful of the objectives
Be willing to identify your mistakes and learn from them

ALTERNATELY:
Come to the forums to QQ

Which will you choose? You're making Chibi Vader cry.
Problem:
PVP is dying and ranked pvp is a wasteland.

Solution:
Log in the game(This list might get tough for you, since it's based on facts, okay?)
Try to form a ranked group.
Fail in the process.
QQ on forums that solo queue's are messing up your ranked/group play.

Bad troll is bad.

Solo bracket will bring in the new players and let them get a taste of PVP. Furthermore they can learn what works and what doesn't at their own pace in a balanced setting. Then eventually they'll make friends they see often during there pvp match ups, hence forming a group, to eventually form a ranked pvp team.

Although this is what the premade supporters want: Competition.
How did they propose to achieve this?
By telling fresh people to PVP to "L2P"

So the next time a fresh player at pvp is getting camped at the spawn or utterly destroyed. Well let's see how he L2P's. Pretty sure they won't come back, but hey, that's how you get more competition right? By making pvp less attractive.

How's ranked going for you?

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
11.28.2012 , 04:41 PM | #1336
Quote: Originally Posted by Pvtcarnage View Post
Hide huh, sure it has nothing todo with playing with friends/guildies and maybe they only have 4 ppl to play with and can't do ranked or maybe they are sick of pugging with whiners like yourself that do nothing to help win but tell everyone they suck in game?

And on my server you run into premades all the time which means fun games, this whole premade vs pug is the common scenario is hog wash.

only true fix is cross server ques with a better match making system.
Nice troll post.

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
11.28.2012 , 04:43 PM | #1337
Quote: Originally Posted by PloGreen View Post
No, its been said countless times - we dont want long queues..

The only way ill be happy if they seperate queues is if they add cross server otherwise, no way will I support that suggestion, sorry.
You don't want long queue's, yet you want to draw people away from PVP, hence making queue's longer.

Bad logic is bad.

Rethink what you are saying and actually apply it to the reality of what's happening to the game. You are promoting longer queue's with every post.

Arlanon's Avatar


Arlanon
11.28.2012 , 04:53 PM | #1338
Quote: Originally Posted by TridusSWTOR
Problem:
PVP is dying and ranked pvp is a wasteland.

Solution:
Log in the game(This list might get tough for you, since it's based on facts, okay?)
Try to form a ranked group.
Fail in the process.
QQ on forums that solo queue's are messing up your ranked/group play.

Bad troll is bad.

-snip-

How's ranked going for you?
Pretty good actually. I had 5 ranked matches last night. Much fun was had by 15 of us. The 16th guy got mad though and started raging at me when I told DPS to get on a marked healer that was hanging around. Go figure, right?

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
11.28.2012 , 04:53 PM | #1339
Quote: Originally Posted by TheronFett View Post
Your entire post brings up good points, and from a philosophical point of view, I agree completely. However, for all intents and purposes, you're also dead wrong. The problem is that your reasoning is based entirely on individual player skill level. A premade of bad players is more often than not, going to lose to a PUG of better players.

This is objective-based, team PvP. While player skill and gear are important, they fall 3rd and 4th on the list compared to coordination and communication. THERE is the real advantage of a premade. The issue then compounds and builds upon itself because it's typically the more skilled and better geared players who form premades in the first place. 4 so-so players who coordinate and play well as a team will dominate a PUG of better players all day long. Teamwork completes objectives and wins games. Not the teams of "good" players who run around dominating everyone else.
I agree with some of what you said, but I don't feel that PUGs lack the ability to coordinate and communicate, they simply choose not to. I don't think giving them a solo queue will improve their coordination in the least and it will ultimately cause more problems than it fixes. When teamwork is lower and the game is less objective based, class imbalance tends to stick out more; all of the utility classes have can't be taken advantage of.

Here is an example based on my experiences last night:

I'm queuing with one of my friends (he's a DPS merc. I know, right?) and we are repeatedly running into well coordinated groups and losing pretty badly. The teams we were on kept fighting on our side of the objectives and allowing their healers to sit in the back and freecast, unmolested. I had marked any healers they had, but no one was making a move to attack them and we were just getting destroyed. Suffice to say, I was not at all happy with the situation.

From my perspective, however, I was not upset that we were facing premades and losing (I assumed a few were premades because of guild tags, but honestly don't know on all of them). I was upset that our team was failing to do the same things that they were taking advantage of: focus firing marked targets, fighting on the objectives rather than around them, and using tools like CC and taunts to keep our team alive.

Voice comms and experience playing together aren't necessary to compete against teams of up to 4 (teams of 8 are a different story). To anyone arguing that premades are the problem, I would ask you to step back and examine the situation objectively. Did they really do anything that your PUG couldn't have done (or did you really even have a full PUG at all)? They don't have 8 people together, so did you really lose to only 4 coordinated people?

TL;DR Rather than blaming premades for playing correctly, place the blame on your team (or possibly yourself) for not doing the same. Only at that point can people improve their level of play in an objective based warzone. A solo queue will not do that.
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TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
11.28.2012 , 04:59 PM | #1340
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
As aforementioned numerous times in numerous threads, the situation described in the post you originally quoted can happen regardless of solo queue or not. My ability to solo 3 terrible players in recruit gear at a node has no bearing on my team and will continue to happen (more often in fact) in a solo queue. Therefore your reply still does not reflect an imbalance between PUGs and premades.

I am not biased and will hear arguments contrary to my position, but only if those arguments are relevant to the topic at hand. I will be in support of any change that makes the game fairer and more enjoyable for EVERYONE. If it does not apply to everyone, then a compromise must be found that will satisfy as many people as possible, not one that gives the ideal solution to one group and completely alienates another.

While population may be an issue in separating queues, the bigger problem is the logistics of making a team with a pool of groups with varying sizes. Take out the individuals and we have to get exactly 8 on a side using 2's, 3's, and 4's bearing in mind that groups on different factions cannot be mixed. The queue times would be atrocious.

Many of the issues that are attributed to premades would not be resolved by a solo queue. You will still have warzones where one team has a healer and the other doesn't. You will still have warzones where one team has more skilled players than the other. You will still have warzones where one team has better gear than the other. You will still have warzones where one team focuses on appropriate targets and one does not. You will still have warzones where one team has players willing to guard nodes and one does not.

In the case of this game, the compromise to both groups and individuals is that there is one queue available to anyone, but the maximum grouping is 4 in order to keep things balanced and avoid a true premade. From my perspective, I feel people are trying to find a way to separate casual players from what would be considered more competitive players and advocating for a solo queue as that solution.

My overall point in this particular post is this: No one would complain about playing against premades if the skill level was equal on both sides. If you lost a Novare Coast by 10% with lots of back and forth turret switching, you'd probably have a lot of fun and feel the teams were evenly matched. No one in the warzone has the same guild tag as anyone else, but you find out later on that 4 people on the other team were grouped. Was the warzone all the sudden not fun because of this? Did you have no shot at winning now because you found out they were grouped?

If your opinion of the warzone changes because you found out there was a group, then you are biased not me. (And I'm not implying that is the case, just stating that as fact)

TL;DR The problem isn't that people are playing together, it's that the skill level on both sides is not equal therefore a solo queue does not resolve the core issue.
While I still enjoy your reasonable approach and not throwing a tantrum if proved wrong, unlike doom. All the things you listed are happening now.

I'm talking about having a healer one side or one or two people well geared on one side. That is going to happen no matter what, so far though no system will be "perfect". While I applaud your enthusiasm for making pvp a balanced environment, some of the suggestions I can't support.

Like better matchmaking- It's just more of the same. Maybe even more so as time goes on since PVP isn't actually fun for new players.

What I do support and think should be put in the game:
Cross server queue's
Mixed faction pvp
Solo bracket pvp.

You can easily think out of the box and change group pvp to 2 or 4 man groups for both ranked or normal warzones. So this "backfill" issue is done away with, it's a shame certain trolls refuse to think of a solution unless it only benefits them.

I already stated what I wanted in PVP many times and all those solutions help queue times. Unlike "better matchmaking", my solution will actually bring more people in, hence bringing in more future competition. One thing you are going to have to accept is this.

Ranked PVP is dieing, due to lack of competitiveness by premades. They rather pug stomp than face challenging teams. Just because one group loves ranked, doesn't excuse the rest of them. Hence why premades are ruining non-ranked warzones, because they refuse to preform on a higher level.

I probably hurt some e-peen ego's with that bit of truth :P