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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

LenrocNewDawn's Avatar


LenrocNewDawn
11.21.2012 , 03:41 AM | #1051
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
I do not mean that you in particular are "lazy" and I'm sure you put a good effort in while fighting, but there is -more- effort you can put in, and I'm sure you know it. The point I'm making is that we're not talking about victims here. PuG's are not victims. They are willing combatants (no one forced them to queue for pvp) and if they quit because the competition is too hard, then the fault for dying queue times can just as easily (if not more) rest on them, as it can on "overpowered" premaders.
LOL and you wonder why people don't take you seriously. I can'y believe that you are thinking to put the downfall of SWTOR PvP on the backs of inexperienced,poorly geared noobies. Common, really?
“Being defeated is often a temporary condition. Giving up is what makes it permanent.”

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.21.2012 , 03:49 AM | #1052
Quote: Originally Posted by LenrocNewDawn View Post
LOL and you wonder why people don't take you seriously. I can'y believe that you are thinking to put the downfall of SWTOR PvP on the backs of inexperienced,poorly geared noobies. Common, really?
PuG does not equal Inexperienced, poorly geared newbies.

<.< No one takes me seriously... meh... I wonder why I've had people agree with me then... oh those must be the stupid ones amiright?

I think the problem is I try to take people like you seriously and continue to debate with you, when most of the serious players have long abandoned this thread.

TheronFett's Avatar


TheronFett
11.21.2012 , 04:09 AM | #1053
Cross-server queues and an actual matchmaking system based on gear and valor would go a long way towards solving the problems with PvP in TOR.

Ionna's Avatar


Ionna
11.21.2012 , 04:11 AM | #1054
I think most serious solo que pvpers with gear etc have more or less given up...just tread water do the pvp daily and figure they wont separate the ques. There just isnt the population for separate ques even with the influx of f2p ppl unless they do xserver too. I think most of us stuck using the solo que to play (talking the geared decent players doing it), are sitting back waiting for a new game to come along that caters to us more. Hopefully eqnext or something gets here soon

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.21.2012 , 05:22 AM | #1055
Quote: Originally Posted by TheronFett View Post
Cross-server queues and an actual matchmaking system based on gear and valor would go a long way towards solving the problems with PvP in TOR.
Hey Theron,

What are your thoughts on matchmaking going off of -highest gear average equipped.- (Let's call it HGA)

I'll see if I can explain it, and then list the one snag I can think of.

So let's say you got a fresh 50. They get their recruit gear on (let's say item level 5 for arguments sake). When they enter matchmaking, it sees the HGA they've ever equiped is 5, and tries to match them to as many 5's as possible, before expanding it to 5-6, and finally 5-7.

Now that recruit is mostly in BM gear (level 6). Their new HGA is gear level 6, so even if they stripped naked level 0) and entered matchmaking, it would still pit them against as many 6's as possible, then finally 5-7.

This would then mean anyone transfering WH armor via the legacy system would have an highest average gear level equal to WH even as a fresh 50. Worse case scenario is they hit 50, queue without equipping their WH gear (meaning it sees them as HGA 5) and then equipping it. They get 1 match of "tricking" the system, and from then on even if they got naked, the system would match them at a HGA of 7 (WH).


The only snag I worry about is PvE gear affecting (or not being affected) HGA for PvP.

TheronFett's Avatar


TheronFett
11.21.2012 , 05:37 AM | #1056
Yes, I agree and have similar thoughts about an HGA system. But I think it needs to go beyond that.

Players, especially solo queuers, should then have their stats boosted via the Bolster system to be on an equal gear level in these matches so that queue times don't get too long if an equally matched group can't be found.

Ashaari's Avatar


Ashaari
11.21.2012 , 06:09 AM | #1057
Please please get real, we play in a fantasy world but please dont live in one.

Can you imagine the mess and chaos the developers would make of a match making system? Can you imagine the exploits that would be used to abuse such a system? Can you imagine how long it would take the developers to attempt the major programming task you would want them to undertake?

I agree the concept is a sound one, and if BW could deliver it smoothly and in a timely fashion I would agree with you 110%, I just dont believe on past experience that it is within either their capability or their budget.

Whether desirable or not, separating group and solo players is comparatively easliy done.

I think that before any changes are made we now need to see the effects of gear equalisation that appear to be coming with 1.6, at least we will see if the problem is still as severe when new players start with less gear disadvantages and for a shorter grind period.

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
11.21.2012 , 06:10 AM | #1058
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
1. I am a Commando (Dps or Heals as needed, Grinded the WH being DPS)
2. I was Premading (and PuG'ing) since recruit. I managed it by being in a guild (leveled in it) and asking "Anyone for a group?
3. Sometimes there isn't a spot. Guild Groups atleast have a little loyalty to give you a spot over friends (sometimes.)
4. See 1. I am a Commando.

I do not mean that you in particular are "lazy" and I'm sure you put a good effort in while fighting, but there is -more- effort you can put in, and I'm sure you know it. The point I'm making is that we're not talking about victims here. PuG's are not victims. They are willing combatants (no one forced them to queue for pvp) and if they quit because the competition is too hard, then the fault for dying queue times can just as easily (if not more) rest on them, as it can on "overpowered" premaders.
So 1 person = everyone's situation.

Yea that totally make sense.

You can blame the pugs for ruining pvp since they are quitting. Why are they quitting? Matches are predetermined before the fighting begins, depending who is on your team. That's not really fun for them.

So while you are left blaming pugs, those queue's will only get longer and you'll only see the 3 or 4 groups left(probably less) still doing pvp. This competition you seek won't happen with the current system, but if you want to keep believing that it will, that's fine. Even if you can actually log in the game and see that it doesn't work.

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
11.21.2012 , 06:30 AM | #1059
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
1. Never said ranked wasing dying.

2. My quote is "I would rather see ToR die and be remembered for going down trying, than become so easy that logging in rewards you." Has nothing to do about getting my way, (which btw -my- way -is- to make it easier for PuG's to have "fun." You just never seem to understand it.)

You can reword it how ever you like. You want the game to die unless you get your way. You can try to make it sound as honorable and heroic as you want but in the end, you want it to die off if things don't go your way. Glad I cleared that up for you.

Basic principle of equality. 2 = 2, 3 =3, 4 = 4.

Premades consist of an individual who has found 3 other like minded players and grouped with them. The individual is known as Premader, and he plays in a Premade.

A solo'er (or PuG) is a single individual who doesn't group. Now, the Solo'er loses to the Premader more, because his non-group (or random) loses to the Premader's group. The Premader tells the Solo'er that if they found 3 friends (a task the Premader has -already- done) they would have better chances.

The Solo'er replies that the Premader should find 4 -more- friends and do ranked (with a witty attempt to insult their macho-ness).

No matter how you look at it, on the basic principle of equality, you as the solo player are insisting that the Premader do -more- work than you are willing to do. 4 isn't equal to 3, 7 isn't equal to 3.

(Fyi, if you and I were working together, I would not ask you to clean a toilet if I would not do so myself. Yet by the above example, you would have me a clean a toilet because you are unwilling to do so.)

You claim you don't like to use the victim route but you are labeling the premades having this huge burden while the puggers got it so easy. I admit your math is correct, but when actually applied to what's happening in the game...well it can't be applied.

I can easily log in and get 8 people, it's not hard. Wanna know why? People on the server know me, they know the people I run with and we have a good time.

On the other hand,

If you are a solo pugger with recruit that is started their first warzone. If you ask in general for more people, they won't come. Why? Why should they? You are just some random dude and unless you got a reputation of being good in pvp, going by your word alone won't get you that group you want.

So you see? I used in game examples of why you are somewhat wrong. How can I do that? Because it's actually happening, I don't need to speculate on these things.

In that example, a 3 man group can not PLAY. In that example, if there are 14 premaders (of what ever set up of premades) and/or 15 solo'ers in queue, a total of 29 people can not PLAY.

Maybe they should queue solo if they are having trouble finding other groups :P or they can hold on to the dieing ranked pvp queue.

Also in that example, if someone D/C's (or omg, misses the queue) in the Group Queue, that group is gimped the entire match.

Like that doesn't happen already....

Roflstomp happens not because the Premaders are "Good" but because the PuG's are "Bad." A Good PuG group can atleast meanage a close loss against a Good Premade.

I love how biased this comment is. I'll have to go back to actually using real in game facts again.

High end pvp guilds run warzones a lot, when they do they stomp people. When these groups are in the queue wanna know what happens? Usually people stop queueing after the match and probably never return or they quit early(which is lame).

But hey, if it makes you feel better let's bring in that 2 man "premade" and say they aren't stomping pugs because that is TOTALLY what we were talking about. The truth is, most high end premades don't enjoy competition and they don't enjoy losing. So if they go in ranked pvp and they get stomped by a bigger wolf well then they will stop queueing or quit early....who's bad now?

I haven't said the current system is fine. You are refusing to hear and understand my words and the balancing system I advocate.

First off, I'm not refusing anything considering I do support cross server queue's. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I refuse to see what you are saying, there is a difference.

What you aren't willing to do, is accept that the current system is killing pvp. Even though you said in your post that you know the state of warzones sucks, what you are supporting is just more of the same. Matchmaking alone won't fix this problem. That is the point I'm trying to make.

Also, please note the death of PvP in the above example (PuG's Stop Playing due to...) comes from the PuG's giving up first, not the Premades. <.< Wouldn't that mean PuG's killed PvP?
So the premades that stop queuing for ranked because the big bully beat em up, aren't at fault at all huh? I guess you'll say how you never done such a thing, that's good for you, too bad it still happens the majority of the time.

Ashaari's Avatar


Ashaari
11.21.2012 , 06:46 AM | #1060
The irony is that there is no real function for ranked as its been in "pre-season" since it was launched.

Therefore there is no need to make it a rigid 8 man pre-made, why should it not be altered to 4 man groups x2? This would certainly make it easier to organise as my own experience is of wasting half the evening trying to get 8 players together.

It would be worth seeing if this increased the popularity of ranked and therefore put less pre-mades into normal WZ,s.

I cant help but wonder if there are any plans for pre-seaon to end.