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The rules of PvP


redsovereign's Avatar


redsovereign
08.14.2012 , 02:56 AM | #1
I know this have been said before a looot of times but this is such a huge issue that I think we have to just keep hassle Bioware about it until someone working there actually get a clue about what to not do in a PvP enviroment.

First though I want to say that I'm by no means a great PVP player in MMORPGs (I've played Dota for 3 years and now I play Dota 2, have been PvPing in guildwars and a little in WoW) however from watching streamers who in difference to me is good at PVP I've learned about the concept of PVP and I enjoy watching and playing in a PVP enviroment.

Like I said before I know this have been discussed countless of time before but since this mode is so broken in TOR I think we the community just have to keep on telling Bioware about this ofc I also understand if not everyone feel the way I do of PVP in TOR but this is how I feel about it:

The resolve system is a good idea... on paper. Many MMORPGS have some kind of trinket that you can get to break out of stuns and whatnot and Resolve as a concept works wonder. Get your bar full and you are immune to CC for a little while. The problem is that this game has no clear rules (it doesn't know itself) what is hard CC and what is soft CC.

I think most will agree that a stun, mezz and daze is hard CC since it leaves you out of control of your character for a while and like many other MMORPGS there are "soft" CC in TOR like blinds and disarm for instance. The problem is that this game obv as I said before don't understand the rules of PVP CC.
In most MMORPGS blind is a counter measure which lowers the chance to hit while attacking however you can still attack you just will miss a lot. In TOR this is not the case at all and this is what baffles me; in TOR blind is a hard CC, a stun but it does not affect resolve? :O

You can get blinded two times a row and do nothing follow this with stun, why not throw in some free slows like project and lightning, while not get force pushed while you're at it?
It just baffles me because they must have been playtesting PVP at some point and the problem I have is not that "there is too much CC in the game" that is ok since Resolve is a countermeasure to this, the problem I have with this is that the game just doesn't follow any rules whatsoever to what is hard and soft CC.

If you can't move your character including not being able to attack, move and use any abilities then THAT IS A HARD CC and is in the same category as a stun and MUST give resolve. Also I'd like it if resolve should at 50% lower all incoming CC with half duration (only my opinion though).

How can you even miss this in development? It's gamebreaking
"Mandalorians Don't make threats. We make promises."

Rassuro's Avatar


Rassuro
08.14.2012 , 03:48 AM | #2
What is this 100% blind you are talking about? You also mention disarm?

Because TOR has neither.

The closest you'll get is an accuracy debuff which somewhat lowers the chance for 2 of the four types of attacks to hit, and an interrupt which when used on a casted or channeled ability prevents that particular ability from being used again for the next four seconds.

You can disagree with them (I personally do, I think that roots should be included in resolve somehow), but the rules are very clear. In fact in my opinion this is one of the great things about the resolve system, everything is very clear with easy rules, there is no grey area where things get confusing.
Things which adds to resolve are stuns, mezzes, knockbacks, and pulls. The game also has exact numbers for how much gets added to resolve based on the type of ability and the duration of that ability.
Toor, 50 Operative healer | Odaen, 50 Assassin tank | Tiyr, 50 Vanguard tank | Zerofour, 50 Mercenary DPS | The Red Eclipse

sanchito's Avatar


sanchito
08.14.2012 , 03:56 AM | #3
You should be immune to all movement impairing effects during full resolve, besides resolve works fine imo

redsovereign's Avatar


redsovereign
08.14.2012 , 03:58 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Rassuro View Post
What is this 100% blind you are talking about? You also mention disarm?

Because TOR has neither.

The closest you'll get is an accuracy debuff which somewhat lowers the chance for 2 of the four types of attacks to hit, and an interrupt which when used on a casted or channeled ability prevents that particular ability from being used again for the next four seconds.

You can disagree with them (I personally do, I think that roots should be included in resolve somehow), but the rules are very clear. In fact in my opinion this is one of the great things about the resolve system, everything is very clear with easy rules, there is no grey area where things get confusing.
Things which adds to resolve are stuns, mezzes, knockbacks, and pulls. The game also has exact numbers for how much gets added to resolve based on the type of ability and the duration of that ability.
When I talked about blind I just did a comparison (might have been irrelevant*) to WoW soft CC because the problem with ToR is that different rules applies for every instance with CC in this game. There is no fine lining, its like the game doesn't know itself if something is soft or hard CC.
IF you take WoWs blind you can still move around but have a accuracy debuff but in TOR blind is a hard CC which can be applied several times to one character.

Roots does not have to be included in Resolve IMO because roots does not prevent you to act, it just prevents you from moving which puts TORs Roots in the soft CC category.

The problem is that everything that prevents you from; activating abilities, move and attack at the same time is a hard CC but blind (which prevents you from doing anything in TOR) doesnt give resolve.

Also the last part I dont really agree with.

I don't remember the exact abilites now but there are some classes that have the same kind of disables but for some classes the disables grants 800 resolve each while for others 200 each. Where is the silver lining?

Being slowed is not an issue because that is a soft CC, you can still defend yourself. The problem currently is that blind just for exampel is so powerful because it can be applied several times to one character followed by stun, choke etc

So... even though I didn't think about it when I created this post maybe what I'm tryign to say in the end is that blind needs tweaking? :P

There just have to be clarified rules between soft and hard CC but ATM there is so many "does not apply to hard CC rules but should do it" abilities in the game

- CC in TOR is like learning the German language; theres like 5 millions exceptions that only occur in SOME situations depending on something
"Mandalorians Don't make threats. We make promises."

kweassa's Avatar


kweassa
08.14.2012 , 04:05 AM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by redsovereign View Post
When I talked about blind I just did a comparison (might have been irrelevant*) to WoW soft CC because the problem with ToR is that different rules applies for every instance with CC in this game. There is no fine lining, its like the game doesn't know itself if something is soft or hard CC.
IF you take WoWs blind you can still move around but have a accuracy debuff but in TOR blind is a hard CC which can be applied several times to one character.

Roots does not have to be included in Resolve IMO because roots does not prevent you to act, it just prevents you from moving which puts TORs Roots in the soft CC category.

The problem is that everything that prevents you from; activating abilities, move and attack at the same time is a hard CC but blind (which prevents you from doing anything in TOR) doesnt give resolve.

Also the last part I dont really agree with.

I don't remember the exact abilites now but there are some classes that have the same kind of disables but for some classes the disables grants 800 resolve each while for others 200 each. Where is the silver lining?

Being slowed is not an issue because that is a soft CC, you can still defend yourself. The problem currently is that blind just for exampel is so powerful because it can be applied several times to one character followed by stun, choke etc
First, give us the exact subject we are talking of, instead of this mumbo jumbo of a non-specific "some stuff", which is utter nonsense... not to mention the entire post is one big jumble of errors and misinformation.

For instance, the 'sleep' or 'blind', or usually referred to as 'mesmerize(mez)' in SWTOR are essentially stuns that break on damage... and therefore considered not a "hard stun". You are accusing the game of being mixed up, on the grounds that the wording/name/terminology (such as 'blind') does not match your conception of a skill as you know it from some other game.. which is simply absurd.

The rules are very simple and clear cut. Less than even a handful -- if any -- exceptions exist, and in 99.9% of the cases you'd meet, everything is exact and predictable. If something about Resolve confuses you, that's you -- not us.
"90% of PvP complaints come from people that are thoroughly unqualified to comment about anything in the first place. Stop assuming that you are a good player, then an answer will come; why you die so often, why you are CCd so often, and why you complain about healers so often - You're simply a bad player. Harsh truth."

redsovereign's Avatar


redsovereign
08.14.2012 , 04:17 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by kweassa View Post
First, give us the exact subject we are talking of, instead of this mumbo jumbo of a non-specific "some stuff", which is utter nonsense... not to mention the entire post is one big jumble of errors and misinformation.

For instance, the 'sleep' or 'blind', or usually referred to as 'mesmerize(mez)' in SWTOR are essentially stuns that break on damage... and therefore considered not a "hard stun". You are accusing the game of being mixed up, on the grounds that the wording/name/terminology (such as 'blind') does not match your conception of a skill as you know it from some other game.. which is simply absurd.
Everything that renders you unable to do anything use to be a hard CC. This is not a 1v1 game if you get a blind in a fight you are usually dead because as soon as that blind/mezz is broken then you'll get a stun in the face.

You can argument about "if you died there then you simply was entering the fight at the wrong time" there is truth to do this also but if you have a trinket system (Resolve) and it doesn't work against some CC (breakable) then it obv doesn't fullfill the purpose it should and could just as much be removed from the game.

Often I find it better to be stunned because then I can at least break it when I want to, if I get a blind /mezz I'm unable to do anything and more then often dead 4-5 secs later when ppl zerg me. With a stun I can at least pop trinket > cloak or force camo to get away.

Dunno how I could explain it more then this.

I am ofc aware that everything is opiniated and as I said I'm nowhere close to be considered a good PvPer so the only thing I can do is try to compare ToRs mechanics which are borrowed from other MMORPGS (nothing wrong with that) to how PVP trinket works in other games with the same mechanic.

IF you have a trinket that gives u immunity to CC after youve get enough resolve then it has to affect everything that renders you "stunned" because blind/mezz in comparison to other games is in TORstuns (which is ridiculous with blind), its breakable stuns but its stil stuns nonetheless and followed by a regular stun it's just a little too good.
"Mandalorians Don't make threats. We make promises."

BambulaGTS's Avatar


BambulaGTS
08.14.2012 , 04:20 AM | #7
Seems L2P issue.

This game has clear CC system:

1. CCs that make your character unable to act - mezz, stun.
2. CCs that relocate your character - knockback, push, pull.
3. CCs that alterate your character movement - slow, root.

1-2 build resolve. 3 does not build resolve.

Freaking simple.

redsovereign's Avatar


redsovereign
08.14.2012 , 04:21 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by BambulaGTS View Post
Seems L2P issue.

This game has clear CC system:

1. CCs that make your character unable to act - mezz, stun.
2. CCs that relocate your character - knockback, push, pull.
3. CCs that alterate your character movement - slow, root.

1-2 build resolve. 3 does not build resolve.

Freaking simple.
blind either does not give you resolve or it gives very little resolve

blind is in category 1 makes your character unable to act

blind in itself is not dangerous but combine a mezz/blind without counter and a regular stun
"Mandalorians Don't make threats. We make promises."

Rassuro's Avatar


Rassuro
08.14.2012 , 04:22 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by redsovereign View Post
I don't remember the exact abilites now but there are some classes that have the same kind of disables but for some classes the disables grants 800 resolve each while for others 200 each. Where is the silver lining?
If you don't know the names, can you describe what these abilities looked like, and from which classes? If whatyou are describing is accurate, then it is a bug and should be fixed.

Quote: Originally Posted by redsovereign View Post
IF you take WoWs blind you can still move around but have a accuracy debuff but in TOR blind is a hard CC which can be applied several times to one character.
...
So... even though I didn't think about it when I created this post maybe what I'm tryign to say in the end is that blind needs tweaking? :P
Once again though, there is no such thing as a blind in TOR. Can you describe exactly what happens when you percieve that you have been blinded? Do you know what abilities were used?
Toor, 50 Operative healer | Odaen, 50 Assassin tank | Tiyr, 50 Vanguard tank | Zerofour, 50 Mercenary DPS | The Red Eclipse

BambulaGTS's Avatar


BambulaGTS
08.14.2012 , 04:23 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by redsovereign View Post
blind either does not give you resolve or it gives very little resolve

blind is in category 1 makes your character unable to act
Blind gives you exactly as much resolve, as every other mezz.

One second of every mezz gives 100 resolve.

Flash bang causes blinded (tech) for 8 seconds, thus giving a character 800 resolve.