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Lost Island HM should have better loot.

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Paleran's Avatar


Paleran
08.13.2012 , 04:44 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
He mentioned that Lost Island is balanced very tightly for a group in Tionese-quality gear, but that because the boss mechanics are heavily execution-based, many players prefer to overgear for it.
Can you clarify that you mean Lost Island HARD MODE is balanced for TIONESE level players??

Are we playing the same game? I was with a guild-only group of players who are pretty decent in full or nearly full columi and we had a difficult time with the enrage timer on LR-5 in the few times we even got it down to 5-10%. Granted we didn't have the mechanics down perfectly, but I find that hard to swallow as we did really well those few instances yet we still wiped due to the enrage. We're not the most hardcore group of folks, but we have had significant trouble downing just that first boss, never mind the rest.

dagrouch's Avatar


dagrouch
08.13.2012 , 04:50 PM | #32
Wow, people stil think this is hard? Stop going in bad gear and learn the mechanics. With the lack of new content, this is slowly becoming the new Black Talon to me...#facerolled.

DarthTHC's Avatar


DarthTHC
08.13.2012 , 04:56 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
I talked with Jesse Sky (Lead Flashpoints and Operations Designer) about the difficulty of Lost Island and its rewards, and he shared his insight about these questions.

He mentioned that Lost Island is balanced very tightly for a group in Tionese-quality gear, but that because the boss mechanics are heavily execution-based, many players prefer to overgear for it. Small mistakes can easily wipe the group, so bringing Ops level gear is great insurance, even if it isn't required. The loot quality reflects this - players who take the risk of going in with Tionese and Columi gear will be rewarded. Players with Ops level gear are likely there for the Black Hole Commendations right now.

That's not to say that we won't be re-examining gear progression going forward. It just happened that when Lost Island was released (1.2), it made sense to us to offer new players and alternate route to the Rakata chest and Columi main hand while infusing the weekly Flashpoint missions with a bit more challenge for players who had geared past most Flashpoints.
Agree with it or not, this has to hands down be the best response to a question I've seen since Georg Z last posted. The answer tells us what the devs were thinking and why they did what they did.

The community may or may not agree that the content can be completed as the devs say it was designed, but that is far less relevant to me than the meat of the answer.

Please, keep good, thorough, informative answers like this coming!
Human beings see oppression vividly when they're the victims. Otherwise they victimize blindly and without a thought. ~ Isaac Bashevis Singer

Thuggy's Avatar


Thuggy
08.13.2012 , 05:09 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
I talked with Jesse Sky (Lead Flashpoints and Operations Designer) about the difficulty of Lost Island and its rewards, and he shared his insight about these questions.

He mentioned that Lost Island is balanced very tightly for a group in Tionese-quality gear, but that because the boss mechanics are heavily execution-based, many players prefer to overgear for it. Small mistakes can easily wipe the group, so bringing Ops level gear is great insurance, even if it isn't required. The loot quality reflects this - players who take the risk of going in with Tionese and Columi gear will be rewarded. Players with Ops level gear are likely there for the Black Hole Commendations right now.

That's not to say that we won't be re-examining gear progression going forward. It just happened that when Lost Island was released (1.2), it made sense to us to offer new players and alternate route to the Rakata chest and Columi main hand while infusing the weekly Flashpoint missions with a bit more challenge for players who had geared past most Flashpoints.
If that's the case, then the enrage timers are probably a bit too tight. Enrage timers, especially in small group dungeons are a pure dps/gear check. They rarely promote good mechanical execution....and are the primary reason players prefer to "overgear" the instance.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
08.13.2012 , 05:35 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by Thuggy View Post
If that's the case, then the enrage timers are probably a bit too tight. Enrage timers, especially in small group dungeons are a pure dps/gear check. They rarely promote good mechanical execution....and are the primary reason players prefer to "overgear" the instance.
LR-5 has a soft enrage at 3 minutes.

He has 389,304 health at start.

This works out to 2162 dps between the tank, melee and ranged dps.

As long as the team brings someone with an armor reduction debuff (and there are several classes that have it, including melee), that should be doable with a tank and 2 dps with Tionese gear if they execute the fight perfectly.

The only old MOX parse I have of a boss fight back when my commando dps was in Tionese was on False Emperor. I hit 750 on the Malgus fight, which has a lot of downtime. And this was with an average rotation without the 4-piece set bonus (free HiB). A properly executed LI fight uses my HiB and DR when moving, so it doesn't have near the downtime of the Malgus fight. I could have hit 850 on an LR-5 fight in full Tionese on a well-executed fight.

If the other dps hit 850 as well, that leaves 462 dps for the tank -- easily doable in Tionese.

And the enrage isn't a one-shot either. The plasma balls drop faster at full size and the grates all have lava. If LR-5 is around 5-10% when he enrages, it is still possible to dps him down.

However, at that level of gear, all it takes is one mistake:
Miss an incinerate -> wipe
Miss a plasma arc -> overtax healer probably a wipe
Drop an electric coil on the tank -> wipe
Fail to gather and aoe adds -> wipe
etc.
etc.

The soft enrage timer can still be beat as long as you have the mechanics down.

But as I've said before, give 4 unskilled players a full set of Best In Slot Campaign/Black Hole gear and tell them to run LR-5. They will wipe.

It's a mechanics check. It takes skill.

EDIT:
I would also say that most people that have issues with LR-5 wipe before the enrage timer. Heck, I died 14 times on LR-5 before I beat him, at anywhere from 30% to 70% health. It wasn't until I ran the fight with someone who taught me what to do that I beat him.

Thuggy's Avatar


Thuggy
08.13.2012 , 06:22 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by JeffKretz View Post
snip
Your initial math did not count the dps time taken away having to deal with adds. I'm not saying its impossible (I'm quite certain it is) Its just not realistic for players of average to above average skill level. My main point is, if their goal was to focus on mechanics, then enrage timers should not be the primary "fail" condition of the encounter....not executing on said mechanics should be (I.E. Incenerates, adds, lightning, fire grates)

Edit: Enrage timers should only exist for 2 reasons:

1) To prevent stacking of healers (something that is not an issue in a 4 man dungeon)
2) To provide a raw gear check in a tank and spank type fight

Any other reason is just lazy design, imo.

MaximusRex's Avatar


MaximusRex
08.13.2012 , 07:09 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
I talked with Jesse Sky (Lead Flashpoints and Operations Designer) about the difficulty of Lost Island and its rewards, and he shared his insight about these questions.

He mentioned that Lost Island is balanced very tightly for a group in Tionese-quality gear, but that because the boss mechanics are heavily execution-based, many players prefer to overgear for it. Small mistakes can easily wipe the group, so bringing Ops level gear is great insurance, even if it isn't required. The loot quality reflects this - players who take the risk of going in with Tionese and Columi gear will be rewarded. Players with Ops level gear are likely there for the Black Hole Commendations right now.

That's not to say that we won't be re-examining gear progression going forward. It just happened that when Lost Island was released (1.2), it made sense to us to offer new players and alternate route to the Rakata chest and Columi main hand while infusing the weekly Flashpoint missions with a bit more challenge for players who had geared past most Flashpoints.
Please tell Jesse Sky that while tight tuning and execution-based mechanics are all well and good, your game engine and/or its client/server communication system does a terrible job of making sure things happen the way a player might expect. L5 is the worst, when as the tank I try to move him so my group doesn't have to stand in stuff, he gets herky jerky on the screen, then doesn't move, then sets the group on fire because I wasn't in range to interrupt him. I've killed him before, several times, but this crap where it just stands there not casting or doing anything for long periods until he gets back to incinerate in his rotation is maddeningly aggravating.

MaximusRex's Avatar


MaximusRex
08.13.2012 , 07:19 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by AllisonBerryman View Post
I talked with Jesse Sky (Lead Flashpoints and Operations Designer) about the difficulty of Lost Island and its rewards, and he shared his insight about these questions.

He mentioned that Lost Island is balanced very tightly for a group in Tionese-quality gear, but that because the boss mechanics are heavily execution-based, many players prefer to overgear for it. Small mistakes can easily wipe the group, so bringing Ops level gear is great insurance, even if it isn't required. The loot quality reflects this - players who take the risk of going in with Tionese and Columi gear will be rewarded. Players with Ops level gear are likely there for the Black Hole Commendations right now.

That's not to say that we won't be re-examining gear progression going forward. It just happened that when Lost Island was released (1.2), it made sense to us to offer new players and alternate route to the Rakata chest and Columi main hand while infusing the weekly Flashpoint missions with a bit more challenge for players who had geared past most Flashpoints.
Please tell Jesse Sky that while tight tuning and execution-based mechanics are all well and good, your game engine and/or its client/server communication system does a terrible job of making sure things happen the way a player might expect. L5 is the worst, when as the tank I try to move him so my group doesn't have to stand in stuff, he gets herky jerky on the screen, then doesn't move, then sets the group on fire because I wasn't in range to interrupt him. I've killed him before, several times, but this crap where it just stands there not casting or doing anything for long periods until he gets back to incinerate in his rotation is maddeningly aggravating.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
08.13.2012 , 07:35 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by Thuggy View Post
Your initial math did not count the dps time taken away having to deal with adds. I'm not saying its impossible (I'm quite certain it is) Its just not realistic for players of average to above average skill level. My main point is, if their goal was to focus on mechanics, then enrage timers should not be the primary "fail" condition of the encounter....not executing on said mechanics should be (I.E. Incenerates, adds, lightning, fire grates)

Edit: Enrage timers should only exist for 2 reasons:

1) To prevent stacking of healers (something that is not an issue in a 4 man dungeon)
2) To provide a raw gear check in a tank and spank type fight

Any other reason is just lazy design, imo.
This is a fair point, and I was mainly just throwing numbers around because I like them.



According to the Jesse Sky info that Allison gave us, the instance was balanced "very tightly" for Tionese-quality gear. Based on my personal experience with the LR-5 fight in particular, I read that as "executed perfectly without a single flub"

It would be interesting, if my group gets a wild hair up our collective fundamental aperatures, to spend the Tionese commendations that have collected in the bank and re-gear 4 of us and see if we could beat the fight. I'll bet we wipe a bunch of times as we currently run LR-5 sloppy (being overgeared). But once we bang the sloppy out of it, I'll think we could pull it off.

That said, I believe the enrage timer isn't really the issue with this fight mainly because I don't see people complaining about "getting him to 5% every time." Most threads about LR-5 involve people wiping far earlier than the enrage.

Toweleeeie's Avatar


Toweleeeie
08.13.2012 , 09:40 PM | #40
Balanced for Tionese gear lol you guys are straight scrubs.
Can I has more Sandbox?