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Class Feedback


fungihoujo's Avatar


fungihoujo
01.03.2013 , 11:58 PM | #181
Dev responses on the sorc forum- not even threads made by devs can get them

Last huttball game I played was insane... we had four sorcs on our team, and we were trying to hard to move the ball- we had people chain passing before being rootlocked and two shot by the other team's mara/jugg/sin heavy team... while their team didn't even bother passing, they just walked their way to our endzone without needing to while laughing off the lightning barely touching their health bars.

We won- but we won because they had zilch for teamwork- our sorcs were passing like crazy, trying to force speed before being thrown about or pulled into fire- getting off a pass anyway, half the time just as a jugg happened to be leaping to them and thus intercepting.

If there's anything good about being so underpowered in a game packed with OP classes that vastly outclass your own- it's when you do get that rare time when you manage to beat them, it feels really, really, really good.

veyl's Avatar


veyl
01.21.2013 , 02:20 PM | #182
Bumping this back to the top so new 50 sorcs can weigh in.

Please specify between PVP and PVE. Majority of this thread is PVP related and I know there are some PVE DPS sages that should be weighing in. (Healers are probably the only comfortable PVE spec right now with only the major issue of Force REGEN.)

Ghost_Spectre's Avatar


Ghost_Spectre
01.21.2013 , 10:16 PM | #183
Quote: Originally Posted by CommunitySupport View Post
Hi everyone,

We’re looking for some specific feedback about each Advanced Class and spec. Your feedback here, along with other feedback we’ve been gathering and our internal metrics, may guide future class balance changes. Similar threads will be found in every Advanced Class forum.

Here are the two questions that we’d like to ask (please only post about specific specs that you actively play, and don’t forget to tell us which one you’re talking about!):

1. How do you think your Sorcerer spec is perceived by other classes?
In PvE, the Sorcerer is respected for it's ability to heal and add DPS as part of a team effort. However, in PvP the Sorcerer is seen as a 'Target of Opportunity' for farming medals as it is easily removed from the battlefield because it lacks any defensive capabilities, damage mitigation, or defensive cooldowns.

Quote: Originally Posted by CommunitySupport View Post


2. How do you perceive your own spec?
I love playing my Sorcerer over my Jugg or Assassin. I was spec'd pure Lightning but in order to be viable in PvP I was forced to go hybid (20/21) for increased survivability with some mobility to attack while on the run. However, I cannot stand up on the focus of more than one person without help. My Sorcerer is the weakest class next to the Mercenary in PvP. Running a hybrid to gain what little help I have now frustrates and sickens me.
Caedus Rage Juggernaut Aloysius Madness Sorcerer Demonicus Healing Sorceress
Vestara Balance Shadow Fat Albert Focus Guardian Baytor Balance Sage
Kallig Legacy Jedi Convenant Level 55 Toons 11

Anosa's Avatar


Anosa
01.27.2013 , 01:02 PM | #184
Quote: Originally Posted by Ghost_Spectre View Post
In PvE, the Sorcerer is respected for it's ability to heal and add DPS as part of a team effort. However, in PvP the Sorcerer is seen as a 'Target of Opportunity' for farming medals as it is easily removed from the battlefield because it lacks any defensive capabilities, damage mitigation, or defensive cooldowns.



I love playing my Sorcerer over my Jugg or Assassin. I was spec'd pure Lightning but in order to be viable in PvP I was forced to go hybid (20/21) for increased survivability with some mobility to attack while on the run. However, I cannot stand up on the focus of more than one person without help. My Sorcerer is the weakest class next to the Mercenary in PvP. Running a hybrid to gain what little help I have now frustrates and sickens me.
this is pretty much it
Meow

Setta's Avatar


Setta
02.02.2013 , 11:23 AM | #185
Quote: Originally Posted by CommunitySupport View Post


1. How do you think your Sorcerer spec is perceived by other classes?

When I first hit 50 on my sorcerer, and was deciding if I want to dps or heal on my sorcerer, since end game starts at 50 really. Most of my guild mates told me that both the sorcerer dps specs are some of the weakest in the game, right there with operative dps. However the healing spec was fairly solid for pve healing.

2. How do you perceive your own spec?

Against my guild's wisdom I decided to prove that sorcerer dps was still viable, and that others were doing it wrong. I've tried various specs, lightning, madness, 4 or 5 different hybrid specs, altering crit / power and surge / alacrity to mini max what I can. Honestly though it's peaking out right where they told me it would, and I can't hold a candle to snipers, powertech, juggernauts, assassins or marauders.

Having answered those questions I'd like to go a bit more in depth than a few sentences for what it's worth. I'll only talk about pve, as I don't feel qualified enough to talk about pvp.

My honest opinion is that having lower damage on a target dummy compared to other classes isn't necessarily a bad thing. I know that because a lot of our damage can be cast on the fly, especially with some hybrid specs, that it gives us a lot of mobility, and where as some classes have to stop dpsing in order to move, we can continue attacking on the run to make up for the lost damage. Depending on our spec, we have the option of casting some of following on the fly, shock, lightning strike, crushing darkness, affliction, chain lightning, creeping terror, and death field. Our AoE is also incredibly strong, compared to other classes.

That having been said, there are things to consider. First a lot of abilities that can be cast on the fly, are spec dependent. I'm not casting creeping terror, or crushing darkness on the fly as a lightning spec sorcerer, nor am I casting chain lightning, on the fly as a madness sorcerer. Lightning strike is generally a bad investment to cast on the fly, especially if the cool down of crushing darkness is about to come up. Also it's not a good idea to recast a dot while it's still ticking which generally rules that out as well, unless it happened to run out as you were moving.

Our utility doesn't offset the damage loss that we get. Sure it can be nice to throw a bubble on the tank before a fight starts if you don't have a sorcerer healing, but really it's negligible in the grand scheme of things. We don't normally throw out heals as a dps sorcerers. I suppose I could, but generally the healers have it covered, and my heals aren't as quick or effective as a healers anyways. If I'm on the move, I might use unnatural preservation to top myself off, or pop static barrier to reduce damage down the line, but generally I opt to use shock or another damage dealing ability if possible. About the only thing that is worth having around is the in combat res. But you can only use one for the whole raid group, and generally speaking someone else (namely the healers) have it anyways. The rest of our utility, like force sprint , force slow, mind cloud, extraction are completely pointless, and when you compare us to snipers or marauders who out dps us severely and can also reduce damage to the raid group or increase damage to the raid group as well, our utility becomes a joke.

My honest proposal is for one a few things to happen, maybe even most to a certain degree.

1) Vastly increase the damage of lightning strike. The obvious is that it would increase the damage of lightning sorcerers to a more reasonable level to potentially keep up with other dps classes. However this could also help madness sorcerers as well. If lightning strike becomes powerful enough to where casting it with wrath is actually worth it, madness sorcerers would actually use this more often. As it stands right now though, you're better off waiting on crushing darkness to come off cool down and continuing spamming force lightning, or throw a shock in there as well if you like.

2) Have our dots and hots be effected by alacrity. Truth be told the only reason anyone stacks alacrity is because surge has diminishing returns, and your only options really are either surge, or alacrity since we don't use accuracy. If alacrity increased the speed in which our damage over time abilities dealt damage it might improve our dps by a bit. If you combined this with the first suggestion, that in itself may solve a lot of our issues on the pve side of things.

3) Removing creeping terror as the 31 point madness tree skill, and make it baseline. A number of madness sorcerers don't even go all the way to the top of the madness tree, unlike lightning sorcerers who all have thundering blast. Most usually stop at creeping death so that they can pick up lightning barrage in the lightning tree. Making creeping terror a baseline ability, would increase damage across the board, and possibly give us a much better madness tree that we can proudly put all 31 points into.

veyl's Avatar


veyl
02.02.2013 , 01:51 PM | #186
@Setta. Great post.

The last I wrote about Sorcerer's Feedback was in July and since then the only major changes that have come to this class is the bubble hybrid spec that is notoriously broken because of the lack of resolve it gives for PVP (Though our only real viable RWZ spec)... and a free instant self heal.

I still think that this class is awesome to play however I still feel it is the weakest compared to all of the AC's. (Merc's would be next from a pvp standpoint) What I'm writing here is mostly a PVE perspective... The ideas at the bottom would be beneficial to PVP as well though.

PVE: Healing wise: Sorcs are very strong in this department, however:
--Force Management is still terrible: Having to murder yourself for force is just ridiculous.
--Dark heal is still terrible and non efficient.
--Dark Infusion is still the longest casted nuke heal of the 3 healer classes. (both kolto injection and Rapid scan are on shorter cast times and harder hitting).
--Sorc's still lack a HoT worth a damn or a way to cast a big heal on the move. ((I feel this is more of a PVP issue though as Sorcs are still very good PVE healers that doesn't require a LOT of moving))

PVE: DPS wise: Sorcs are Mediocre here.
-- Even in BiS gear with perfect precision and never clipping, A sorc DPS still does mediocre damage compared to Mercenaries // Snipers // Marauders and even Powertechs (though skill cap is very high for PT DPS)
-- Lightning Strike as a base attack for Lightning builds is horrifically low on damage.
-- Thundering Blast, too low on damage for a 31 point talent considering how long the cast time is on it. Though it can autocrit, the Top end damage is simply too low.
-- Chain Lightning is also too low.
-- DoT damage (all of them) for Madness is ...you guessed it... too low. Madness tree is built around its dots and Force Lightning. Force Lightning // deathfield are probably the only two abilities that I believe are in the correct range that they should be damage wise.
-- Sorcerers still have no "execute range" ability // talent. Majority of the classes either have this in their talent tree or a flat out damage ability that can be used sub 30%. I think one of the major things that hurts a Sorc DPS (compared to everyone else) is this lack of an execute.

My Ideas for fixing // bringing the class up to all the others potential:

Heals -- Honestly, healing in PVE is really good. I think the only fixes that could make it more attractive is:
-- Reduce the cast time of Dark Infusion. 2.2 // 2.3 seconds is still too long for the amount that it heals for. If it left a HoT on the target when used, the cast time would be justifiable.
-- Dark Heal needs to be buffed or have a talent that increases it's healing on targets below 30% health by a certain %. ((This would actually make it really beneficial for PVP'ers as well as dark heal is even weaker due to Trauma.))
-- An ability/talent to give back force that doesn't rely on murdering ourselves. (I suggest a talent that ties into Recklessness - giving back a % of force when using the Two spells that crit. I'd also suggest to put this in the first Tier so that it's accessible to Madness DPS builds)

DPS -- Easily one of the lowest DPS characters you could have. (Operative DPS would probably be next)
--DoT damage needs to be increased or talents need to be adjusted to boost the damage output. Alacrity should have some kind of effect on their duration but I feel this would negatively effect force management for Madness spec'd sorcs. (Having to reapply them) The force return from FL crits would have to be increased to compensate for this.
-- Thundering blast needs to be buffed or the cast time needs to be reduced. It's lackluster for a 31 point talent.
-- Lightning Strike damage should be increased if a target has affliction on it (Like TB -- this could be applied as a talent and replace where Lightning Barrage is in the Lightning Tree)
-- Move Lightning Barrage to tier 1 Madness - Remove Sith Defiance talent all together because no one ever uses it.
-- Increase Will of the Sith to 6 and 9%.
-- Increase Conduction to 6% instead of 3.
-- Sorcerers need an Execute Range ability // talent: This could be Shock hitting much harder sub 30% and costing less force to use. Madness DoT's should tick Higher or always crit sub 30%. This is one of the biggest things the AC needs.

FrumpytheClown's Avatar


FrumpytheClown
02.03.2013 , 04:03 AM | #187
As a Madness Sorc:

1. My class is seen as an minor annoyance that if left unchecked COULD cause a problem down the road.
2. My view on the class is that we have so much potential and out put so little compared to other classes.
"Peace is a lie, there is only Passion..." Ghandi was peaceful, now he is dead. Ghangis Khan was passionate and nearly conquered the known world.

AdmiralParmesan's Avatar


AdmiralParmesan
02.03.2013 , 01:41 PM | #188
Quote: Originally Posted by FrumpytheClown View Post
As a Madness Sorc:

1. My class is seen as an minor annoyance that if left unchecked COULD cause a problem down the road.
2. My view on the class is that we have so much potential and out put so little compared to other classes.
The problem is you can focus a dps sorc and they will do no damage and probably die. You can also not focus a dps sorc and the damage they produce still isn't that threatening.
Depreva (Sith Sorcerer) - Prophecy of the Five-

Darkallex's Avatar


Darkallex
02.17.2013 , 07:36 AM | #189
Quote: Originally Posted by Setta View Post
Having answered those questions I'd like to go a bit more in depth than a few sentences for what it's worth. I'll only talk about pve, as I don't feel qualified enough to talk about pvp.

My honest opinion is that having lower damage on a target dummy compared to other classes isn't necessarily a bad thing. I know that because a lot of our damage can be cast on the fly, especially with some hybrid specs, that it gives us a lot of mobility, and where as some classes have to stop dpsing in order to move, we can continue attacking on the run to make up for the lost damage. Depending on our spec, we have the option of casting some of following on the fly, shock, lightning strike, crushing darkness, affliction, chain lightning, creeping terror, and death field. Our AoE is also incredibly strong, compared to other classes.

That having been said, there are things to consider. First a lot of abilities that can be cast on the fly, are spec dependent. I'm not casting creeping terror, or crushing darkness on the fly as a lightning spec sorcerer, nor am I casting chain lightning, on the fly as a madness sorcerer. Lightning strike is generally a bad investment to cast on the fly, especially if the cool down of crushing darkness is about to come up. Also it's not a good idea to recast a dot while it's still ticking which generally rules that out as well, unless it happened to run out as you were moving.

Our utility doesn't offset the damage loss that we get. Sure it can be nice to throw a bubble on the tank before a fight starts if you don't have a sorcerer healing, but really it's negligible in the grand scheme of things. We don't normally throw out heals as a dps sorcerers. I suppose I could, but generally the healers have it covered, and my heals aren't as quick or effective as a healers anyways. If I'm on the move, I might use unnatural preservation to top myself off, or pop static barrier to reduce damage down the line, but generally I opt to use shock or another damage dealing ability if possible. About the only thing that is worth having around is the in combat res. But you can only use one for the whole raid group, and generally speaking someone else (namely the healers) have it anyways. The rest of our utility, like force sprint , force slow, mind cloud, extraction are completely pointless, and when you compare us to snipers or marauders who out dps us severely and can also reduce damage to the raid group or increase damage to the raid group as well, our utility becomes a joke.

My honest proposal is for one a few things to happen, maybe even most to a certain degree.

1) Vastly increase the damage of lightning strike. The obvious is that it would increase the damage of lightning sorcerers to a more reasonable level to potentially keep up with other dps classes. However this could also help madness sorcerers as well. If lightning strike becomes powerful enough to where casting it with wrath is actually worth it, madness sorcerers would actually use this more often. As it stands right now though, you're better off waiting on crushing darkness to come off cool down and continuing spamming force lightning, or throw a shock in there as well if you like.

2) Have our dots and hots be effected by alacrity. Truth be told the only reason anyone stacks alacrity is because surge has diminishing returns, and your only options really are either surge, or alacrity since we don't use accuracy. If alacrity increased the speed in which our damage over time abilities dealt damage it might improve our dps by a bit. If you combined this with the first suggestion, that in itself may solve a lot of our issues on the pve side of things.

3) Removing creeping terror as the 31 point madness tree skill, and make it baseline. A number of madness sorcerers don't even go all the way to the top of the madness tree, unlike lightning sorcerers who all have thundering blast. Most usually stop at creeping death so that they can pick up lightning barrage in the lightning tree. Making creeping terror a baseline ability, would increase damage across the board, and possibly give us a much better madness tree that we can proudly put all 31 points into.
And to add something more on your last point....there are 2-3 other talents completely useless either in pve or pvp for the time being.Parasitism is a joke as the % is too low IF a dot crits and Corrupted Flesh seems useless....7.5/15% isn't what will save a sorc and the biggest of our problems are the big-direct hits we can't mitigate,but we have to take one of these talents to open higher tier (don't forget that other classes have bigger % for aoe avoidance which is much more useful).Some ppl prefer Oppressing Force instead but I never found it that handy.

The last and most funny talent imo is Devour.What can some1 say about such a talent on last tier?I still can't stop laughing when I see it even after 14months in this game.Who was the brilliant mind that added this talent on the last tier of a dps spec?Especially when the heals of the talents are even funnier?Imo Creeping terror should be added as an ability of another basic attack(let's say Crushing Darkness for e.g.) being taken from a talent in high tier,replacing Devour.For the 31 point talent we could use a long cd defensive ability.
Moradi - Sith Sorcerer - The Red Eclipse

Furballer's Avatar


Furballer
07.28.2013 , 04:50 AM | #190
Have to say it: Nice changes you made to the Forcewielders.

But...

1) The expected Dmg or Healing rate we had at the beginning wasnt there. I think you count the AoE effects from the Inq and Consular for all affected Targets...all possible affected targets.
Long casting, and if you see the dmg result on a single target the effects seem pretty weak.

2) Other classes run more dmg on a single target, with a single attack and usually have fast casting times or None. Depending which skill tree you use the Forcewielders seem to hold a negative effect next to other classes....armor, casting or dmg/healing what ever gives this negative feeling.

Thx