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1.3 BIS setups


Enhancer's Avatar


Enhancer
07.09.2012 , 10:14 AM | #21
I know that generally you guys stray away from PVP related angles of these DPS details, but I do have one question regarding the crit RATING. I remember reading a Daellia post saying that you generally want to be somewhere between 250 and 350 for the rating, yet these builds are all significantly lower (specifically madness as that's what I spec to).

Right now I'm sitting at about 1800 WP, I still need a few WH pieces so it will increase a tad, my crit rating is 292 and crit chance is 30.78 (no agent buff) with 76% surge. My bonus dmg is 822 (without the warrior buff) with 808 power. I am about to grab my WH offhand today and that is a decently large commitment so I want to make sure I make the right choice. Two of the choices will cost me 82 crit dropping me to a 210 rating.

Just wanted to see what you thought about the crit rating and being significantly different than previously mentioned.

Daellia's Avatar


Daellia
07.09.2012 , 10:59 AM | #22
Note that the "250-350 crit rating" advice was an extrapolation based on previously optimized Rakata gear (which was only done for the then-dominant 0/13/28 Hybrid spec). I didn't expect there to be as large a difference as above in the value of crit rating among the specs. The above are the stat ratios to shoot for in at the campaign gear level for each respective spec. They supersede any previous advice I've given (I'm not perfect, after all, and I do make educated guesses from time to time, when definitive results are still being formulated).
Even Angels must kill from time to time... ~Kaedis

Larry_Dallas's Avatar


Larry_Dallas
07.09.2012 , 11:05 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Enhancer View Post
I know that generally you guys stray away from PVP related angles of these DPS details, but I do have one question regarding the crit RATING. I remember reading a Daellia post saying that you generally want to be somewhere between 250 and 350 for the rating, yet these builds are all significantly lower (specifically madness as that's what I spec to).

Right now I'm sitting at about 1800 WP, I still need a few WH pieces so it will increase a tad, my crit rating is 292 and crit chance is 30.78 (no agent buff) with 76% surge. My bonus dmg is 822 (without the warrior buff) with 808 power. I am about to grab my WH offhand today and that is a decently large commitment so I want to make sure I make the right choice. Two of the choices will cost me 82 crit dropping me to a 210 rating.

Just wanted to see what you thought about the crit rating and being significantly different than previously mentioned.
In pvp, some classes, specifically concealment ops, stack crit and surge like crazy for the increased chance at front-end burst. I don't know if it's "optimal" or just conventional wisdom gone wrong, but the thinking is that the increased chance to crit the opening sequence outweighs any flat loss to the lesser skills (rapid shots or some other low-dmg ability) spammed while waiting for another opportunity to chain your money skills. I use a carnage marauder and do not stack crit, but then my damage doesn't fall off when gore's cooling down near as much as an op's does after their initial rotation.

With Madness, you don't really have a chunky set of sequential skills that could theoretically benefit from chain crits, like an operative. You do have high sustained damage, so it's probably better to play to your strengths, I would think. When I start tinkering with my war hero mods (on my madness sorc), I'm going to get it as close to the pve BiS setup as is possible with the available +expertise modifications.

Edit: Buy the offhand. Mainhand's a little murkier. I went with the force-mystic's.

Enhancer's Avatar


Enhancer
07.09.2012 , 11:08 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Daellia View Post
Note that the "250-350 crit rating" advice was an extrapolation based on previously optimized Rakata gear (which was only done for the then-dominant 0/13/28 Hybrid spec). I didn't expect there to be as large a difference as above in the value of crit rating among the specs. The above are the stat ratios to shoot for in at the campaign gear level for each respective spec. They supersede any previous advice I've given (I'm not perfect, after all, and I do make educated guesses from time to time, when definitive results are still being formulated).

So essentially since WH gear is also 61, the numbers should translate similarly. Glad I saw this, I was in the process of having to grind up another BM offhand since the one I currently have to trade was not what I thought I needed. This changes everything.....

Thanks Daellia.

hatterson's Avatar


hatterson
07.09.2012 , 11:08 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Daellia View Post
Note that the "250-350 crit rating" advice was an extrapolation based on previously optimized Rakata gear (which was only done for the then-dominant 0/13/28 Hybrid spec). I didn't expect there to be as large a difference as above in the value of crit rating among the specs. The above are the stat ratios to shoot for in at the campaign gear level for each respective spec. They supersede any previous advice I've given (I'm not perfect, after all, and I do make educated guesses from time to time, when definitive results are still being formulated).
To add to this. When running the Lightning sims specifically I was shocked at how low the value of crit was and how high the alacrity was. I kept thinking "there must be something I'm doing wrong" but time and again the numbers would show themselves.

I even looked through the SimC code to see if I could find a bug with the weighting algorithms, but everything looked good there.
"The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it."
- George Bernard Shaw

Daellia's Avatar


Daellia
07.09.2012 , 11:29 AM | #26
Hindsight 20/20, but I'm less shocked by it than I originally way. A solid 21% of your damage as Lightning doesn't benefit at all from Crit Rating. This leaves only about 35% of your damage scaling with crit rating AND with the boosted crit multiplier, compared to the ~45% for Hybrid (plus the crit scaling for Barrage) and the ~55% for Madness.

This reduction in Crit focus, and the vastly increased crit multiplier on your highest damage abilities due to skills, means that Surge's benefit drops a bit as well. Add to that that Alacrity's benefit increases significantly due to the much higher percentage of damage from casted effects, and the results aren't as surprising.

What is surprising is that despite that, Lightning actually gets the best mileage out of Willpower, both in absolute scale (0.4141 DPS per point, compared to 0.4001 for Madness and 0.3989 for Hybrid), and compared to Power (it's nearly 15% better than Power for Lightning!). Considering the primary benefit of Willpower over Power is the crit chance, I wonder if there's something funky with Lightning's Damage Bonus contribution to damage done. I'll need to investigate this.
Even Angels must kill from time to time... ~Kaedis

Enhancer's Avatar


Enhancer
07.09.2012 , 11:30 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Larry_Dallas View Post
In pvp, some classes, specifically concealment ops, stack crit and surge like crazy for the increased chance at front-end burst. I don't know if it's "optimal" or just conventional wisdom gone wrong, but the thinking is that the increased chance to crit the opening sequence outweighs any flat loss to the lesser skills (rapid shots or some other low-dmg ability) spammed while waiting for another opportunity to chain your money skills. I use a carnage marauder and do not stack crit, but then my damage doesn't fall off when gore's cooling down near as much as an op's does after their initial rotation.

With Madness, you don't really have a chunky set of sequential skills that could theoretically benefit from chain crits, like an operative. You do have high sustained damage, so it's probably better to play to your strengths, I would think. When I start tinkering with my war hero mods (on my madness sorc), I'm going to get it as close to the pve BiS setup as is possible with the available +expertise modifications.

Edit: Buy the offhand. Mainhand's a little murkier. I went with the force-mystic's.
It makes since that with the focus (no pun intended) on a more sustained damage than that of a burst style, that the crit rating might be acceptable much lower than before with the comparisons now using Campaign/WH gear compared to Rakata.

Yeah I was thinking that also, grabbing the mystic's and trying to keep some sort of semblance to this BiS guide even though it's tailored more for PVE than PVP. I would think that the metrics would cross over for most of these stats (minus expertise of course).

Thanks everyone for the input

CecilPaladin's Avatar


CecilPaladin
07.09.2012 , 12:49 PM | #28
Bah does this mean I have to learn the lightning spec?

I still prefer to roll with a hybrid spec, just because it's still very simple to me. If the hybrid is within 4.6% of the lightning spec (BiS), I could live with that. That coupled with the fact that these are simulations on tank and spank fights and I'm sure any movement would favor the Madness or Hybrid spec enough to render the slight difference null.

I wonder if boosting your alacrity would benefit a Hybrid spec. I'm talking to obscene levels of alacrity to perhaps somehow magically hit some plateau. In WoW for shadow priest in Cata, there was some magical haste numbers you could reach that would give you a 3%-4% increase of damage just by passing that certain threshold. Probably not the same with SWtoR, but one can wonder.

hatterson's Avatar


hatterson
07.09.2012 , 01:07 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by CecilPaladin View Post
Bah does this mean I have to learn the lightning spec?

I still prefer to roll with a hybrid spec, just because it's still very simple to me. If the hybrid is within 4.6% of the lightning spec (BiS), I could live with that. That coupled with the fact that these are simulations on tank and spank fights and I'm sure any movement would favor the Madness or Hybrid spec enough to render the slight difference null.

I wonder if boosting your alacrity would benefit a Hybrid spec. I'm talking to obscene levels of alacrity to perhaps somehow magically hit some plateau. In WoW for shadow priest in Cata, there was some magical haste numbers you could reach that would give you a 3%-4% increase of damage just by passing that certain threshold. Probably not the same with SWtoR, but one can wonder.
If I recall correctly the haste issue with shadow priests in Cata was based around the way that DoTs scaled. There were certain 'jump' points where DoTs would gain an extra tick.

Given that in SWTOR alacrity doesn't affect DoTs, none of these jump points exist thus alacrity has a relatively smooth curve.
"The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it."
- George Bernard Shaw

DonJuansen's Avatar


DonJuansen
07.18.2012 , 10:40 AM | #30
If i am correct the DPS numbers are based on turret-style encounters.
What i'm interested in is how the three specs hold up in light movement or helter-skelter situations.
Have there been any sims on this yet?