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Same gender relationships clarifications?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender relationships clarifications?
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Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
12.30.2012 , 08:34 AM | #4641
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
Really though, Kioma said the gbt community is made to feel excluded, and I think that's just another comment with no meaning behind it.
The game is telling LGBT players they don't exist, that their concerns and wants are trivial. The game is telling them that they are not "normal" and that they do not "deserve" to be given equal options and equal representation.

It seems to me that you are essentially telling someone to ignore the discrimination and micro-aggressions being aimed at them because you don't think that those are a problem because they do not affect you. It seems to me you are approaching this topic from a position of privilege and you just can't understand that people without that privilege might have different reactions to the same circumstances, or even that people with the same privilege as you might have different reactions to the same circumstances.

What you have essentially said is that despite LGB players not being represented, not being able to make choices that they will enjoy, that they are not being excluded. Explain that.

JediMB's Avatar


JediMB
12.30.2012 , 10:54 AM | #4642
Quote: Originally Posted by Melycinya View Post
I am also on board for removing gendered clothing, and perhaps allowing people to choose whether certain tops are midriff-baring, instead of having it automatically happen (so frustrating, it usually removes some of my favorite pieces of that armor).
+1

I would totally consider actually paying for an Investigator's Armor set if they didn't remove half the cloth for female characters, which ruins the armor completely. (Also, slave outfits, dancer outfits and loungewear should be available for men too. Maybe not the same designs, but still.)
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wainot-keel's Avatar


wainot-keel
12.30.2012 , 11:37 AM | #4643
Quote: Originally Posted by Lent_San View Post
I agree. Especially when the conversation is going in circles with one person going "xyz" and a second person going "yes, but..." and it's starting all over again.

Topics that have long been discussed, by the way.

Can't seem to take any interest in these kinds of discussions, since concern trolls are still trolls after all.
Right. It goes in circles because for them is not really about exchanging some opinions and leave it at a "agree to disagree" state. They just keep regurgitating same old piss poor arguments against it as way of showing their contempt and despise over and over. That's what is about. Unfortunately, this won't change

natashina's Avatar


natashina
12.30.2012 , 12:44 PM | #4644
One thing I find rather amusing about all of this...

GLAAD has investigated this for a reason. GLAAD was under no obligation to do so. I can imagine it deals with people crying wolf over discrimination all the time. So they take it seriously. Trust me, they wouldn't have even bothered to get back to a few of us otherwise. They also did say they'd get back to us early next year to pursue this further if EA kept screwing around.

The exclusion of the content with the inclusion of OGRs was a form of discrimination in and of itself. That is insulting, but the continued silence over this one subject seals it for me. I'm also seeing how much more information is being released about Makeb. I'm going to tentatively take that as a positive sign that we'll get our answer after the New Year.

It isn't just the media that cares after all. We do have one helluva powerful ally at our back. So to Hades with the trolls. We're don't have to explain ourselves to them or anyone else.

There are days I just get sick of people trying to make me justify my existence as a LGBT person. It carries over into my game world too, with an AAA Company doing it no less. I love the gaming culture, but there are those days that I know that has a long way to grow.

BioWare-Austin, Electronic Arts and all companies associated with The Old Republic:

We need an update. It's only going to get louder from all parties until you speak. Grid yourselves and learn to deal with the uproar. Like you have done before.

Mr. Hickman, give us an answer. Where it can't be hidden behind an offhanded comment. Granted, that comment meant a lot to me and I'm sure it did for others. Gabe and Hall took a risk to let this group know that they are listening at leat.

At this point though, the update needs to come from you Sir. On a video would be nice, but I would take a "State of the Game," type post.

Edit: These game comparisons are getting out of hand at this point. This isn't about platforming games. Game comparisons are one thing, but this is ridiculous.

This is about the content promised by this company for this game. This about about a company that has a prescient for this content in the past. Not a platform game series started nearly 25 years ago.

This isn't about why people are offended that this content could very well happen. This isn't about the 14th excuse as to why not to have the content, this is about getting an update on said content.

I'm done with the trolls that come in and keep trying to derail this topic. Any posts stating why this content should not make into the game will be flagged as off topic. It's been stated over and over again by posters and by mods that that it isn't the point of this thread. I'm done dealing with it.

If there are those that wish to discuss the reasons why some features aren't going to make it into the game, there are various threads or just start your own.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
12.30.2012 , 12:48 PM | #4645
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
The game is telling LGBT players they don't exist, that their concerns and wants are trivial. The game is telling them that they are not "normal" and that they do not "deserve" to be given equal options and equal representation.

It seems to me that you are essentially telling someone to ignore the discrimination and micro-aggressions being aimed at them because you don't think that those are a problem because they do not affect you. It seems to me you are approaching this topic from a position of privilege and you just can't understand that people without that privilege might have different reactions to the same circumstances, or even that people with the same privilege as you might have different reactions to the same circumstances.

What you have essentially said is that despite LGB players not being represented, not being able to make choices that they will enjoy, that they are not being excluded. Explain that.
No what I'm saying is we don't see this complaint in every other game out there.

Is the GBT community excluded when Link saves the princess instead of a prince?

And you have no idea if it effects me or not as I've never said what my orientation is. I can just see it logically and not see everything as an offense to my RL status.

You already know BW has put in GBT content in other games. So to think the company has discriminated against the GBT community is poor form on those who think it.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
12.30.2012 , 01:01 PM | #4646
Quote: Originally Posted by Zandilar View Post
But it's true. I *do* feel excluded (just like I felt excluded by the acronym you used there, and itched to say that L is different to G, and therefore they both should be there, then decided it was probably a typo and let it go ). There are some characters of mine (read: all of them) for which this exclusion just grates whenever it comes up. Every time I see a heterosexual flirt in the game, I'm reminded of the absence of homosexual flirts. Sure, my characters don't use flirt options (unless I'm mucking around seeing what each conversation option does - yes, that does take up some of my play time, the ESC key is handy - or if I think my character would grit her teeth and do it anyway because it gets her something she wants (an extremely rare occurance)) - but when they would flirt (if this were a tabletop game), they can't.

(I decided to snip out the part of my post that discussed hypothetical SGR only games and transgender visibility because it probably contravenes the guidelines for this thread. Needless to say, the absence of T (and I for that matter) is a concern of mine.)



If this game were just a non-interactive story, yes Mako would have a fixed sexuality. Just think of everyone's game as "what if" - because we don't get to see Mako interacting with every single BH, just our own, her sexuality only matters to our story. If Joe Bloggs's Mako is straight, it has no bearing on Jane Bloggs's lesbian (or bisexual depending on how it played out) Mako. Joe's Mako is not Jane's Mako... They're not the same character, just possible variants on a theme.

I do remember, though, having a brief exchange with David Gaider back in the days of NWN when I was insisting that just replacing the hard coded pronouns with gender tokens was good enough for SGR (back before everything was fully voiced ) - he basically said that it was bad writing (sound familiar?). He convinced me that day, that in a perfect world, each character would have their own sexuality - some would be straight, some bi, some homosexual. Unfortunately the world is not perfect, and making a whole bunch of romances that don't intersect for both genders is a lot of time and money - so the best we can hope for for the near future is more hero-sexual love interests.
I'm not against the gender token. But, MMOs stories are linear, just like a console single player game. You just don't think it is, because the illusion of choices.

The company can only do so many choices. It will get to the point in the games storyline will you will look at it, and wonder to yourself, how did this event happen, if my character did this choice?

The storyline is planned to get you from point A to point B.

And the bad writing is a valid concern. Admittedly, one I think only a few players would likely take notice of.

My thought on this, is people feel entitled to something in a product they don't have to support. Wanting answers is fine. But if they give an answer that doesn't equal what you want, then they're ragged on anyways.

They said it was excluded due to budget and time restraints. I can see that as being totally truthful. I can see them ending up putting it on the backburner untill they think it's ready and they're not covering other things that they think has priority over this part of the game. I can see why they would put it lower on the list.

SithKoriandr's Avatar


SithKoriandr
12.30.2012 , 01:05 PM | #4647
Quote: Originally Posted by Kioma View Post
And that, right there, is a sign not only that you don't understand, but of how much you don't understand.



If the MMO were made for the general public as SWTOR was (it was not made exclusively or specifically for the heterosexual population of the globe) and it had SGRs and not OGRs, then yes, I'm be up in arms about that. I want equality here, and currently SWTOR lacks it. For the same reason I don't support misandry or misogyny.

Regarding cross-dressing, I was downright annoyed when I found clothes that were gender-specific. I think that restriction should be outright removed. So yes, I also support transgendered people and everyone else along the broad, fluid spectrum that is human sexuality. If it's legal I support it.

And if you're that disappointed by the lack of cross-dressing options in SWTOR I suggest you start a thread about it. I'd support you all the way (in the unlikely but possible event that you're actually serious).
Serious about the cross dressing. Sadly, the character customization is so terrible in this game it'd be meh to me.

However, you're wrong. Made for the general public would mean made for just that, the majority of public. The GBT community is a very small percentage of the general public.

Quething's Avatar


Quething
12.30.2012 , 01:17 PM | #4648
Wow, 10/10 for the Sith. The concern trolling was pretty good, but the petty little "GBT" thing after being informed that it's annoying and exclusionary is utterly top-notch. That is some quality unreportable effort to induce rage and pain in your target audience. If only you could be convinced to use your powers for good instead of evil.

Thanks for the bumps, though.

Anglvamp's Avatar


Anglvamp
12.30.2012 , 01:23 PM | #4649
I'm gonna try a new track in explaining this. In the past, Bioware games have included content for us ( the LGBT community ) As such, we have bought their products and enjoyed them and said how much we have, praised them even. They have used this support in their marketing to advertise to us that future games from them would included the same.

Now, if Bioware had said you (specifically those people arguing against this) that in the past they created content specifically for you and enjoyed your support and their new game would be including it, then before launch announced it would not be included and then kept dangling the possibility so you'd keep paying, how would you feel. Try to put yourself in another shoes for a moment and really THINK.

All we ask for is an answer to a question. They don't seem reluctant to to answer questions about other content, they have to let some info out, so why not answer ours? Its the bizarre silence from people who were normally vocal about the content we want to get our support (and money) that I personally have issue with.

A simple yes or no would do it for me. Some have suggested that we would keep complaining after we got an answer, well we won't know until they do, and to pretend otherwise is rather insulting in and of itself. Don't put words in our mouths, give us your reasons for not wanting this content, and discuss our points.

^.^

Palar's Avatar


Palar
12.30.2012 , 01:35 PM | #4650
Quote: Originally Posted by SithKoriandr View Post
They said it was excluded due to budget and time restraints. I can see that as being totally truthful. I can see them ending up putting it on the backburner untill they think it's ready and they're not covering other things that they think has priority over this part of the game. I can see why they would put it lower on the list.
The fact they somehow still had the budget and time to do the OGRs, but not SGR? Yeah, that's where the exclusionary talk comes into it.

Just imagine the whiny, foul-mouthed reaction in General they'd have gotten if they had said "we've not the time to finish Space Missions... better put in the Imperial ones only and call Republic-side a 'post-launch feature'" and then fobbed off the issue for over a year.

Somehow, I doubt they would have people offering up nonsense like "just head-canon that your Smuggler has a pimped-up ship, it's not that important to their character" or "go download X-Wing vs Tie-Fighter off some Rom site, if you're so interested in Space Combat... yes, I know that won't work in Windows 7".