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Same gender relationships clarifications?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender relationships clarifications?
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
11.28.2012 , 06:05 PM | #3351
Quote: Originally Posted by JCisneros View Post
I have added my question(s) to the Live Stream 2 topic in General. My questions are on page 10 and I quote fabiyun's specific question about SGR's. I recommend we all add a question to it by quoting each other so they cannot say it was an isolated question.

~JC
I posted, quoting MoogleNut. I'll have to buy more tea-bags for tomorrow and the inevitable flaming and I'm going to receive for daring to ask about SGRA's outside of the containment zone.

@Slaign - I've been involved in the discrimination discussion, but at this point I must admit I have very little enthusiasm for it or anything much else besides. It was my (very poorly done, as you can probably tell) attempt at questioning the idea of discrimination from Bioware in an abstract manner. I don't expect **** from Bioware, really. I realise development takes forever and ages and eons, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop asking for at least the basic "are you intending to introduce this content, ever?", even though I know it's not my right to even be in this discussion. Unless of course someone asks me to stop being such an appropriative **** and check my privilege, as it were.

fabiyun's Avatar


fabiyun
11.28.2012 , 06:19 PM | #3352
Antagonistic. My word for today.

As a marginalised person you have no choice but getting used to being antagonised. Privileged people treat you as a child. Perhaps this is a form of projection, as they are the ones who have something to learn. Perhaps even in an infant way, learning to share and treating people equally.

Nevertheless I'm making my boundary clear. Don't antagonise me.
I understand my own interests. Thank you for your support. I can sort out my own feelings. Thank you for your consideration. I can sort out my own behaviour. Thanks for your concern.
I don't feel sorry for privileged people being confronted with their behaviour. I don't feel that I should let myself be discriminated against to spare their feelings. That is in actuality much of the essence of what privilege entails. Don't think that I will take you seriously when you tell me that my interests are obviously third rate in comparison to the privileged person's interests. Don't think that you can tell me that I should be understanding this.

I also don't think that I should on a constant basis be put in a defensive corner because people feel that they need to share with me the troubles of privileged life. I tend to ignore these opinions. Sometimes I have had enough and try to make clear in the nicest way that I've reached my limit.

But here too one opens the door to more offense. Because voicing my opinion is again infringing on the privileged person's taken right to tell me how I should take it. How I should understand how they mean it. How I should feel about that. And what I am allowed to say about that. Of course, to serve my interests, because privileged people know better than I do what my interests are.

To then just put it there. Well what way did you mean it? You spoke to me as if I'm a child but you didn't mean it? You told me that I shouldn't feel a certain way because you don't feel that way, but you don't mean it? You as a privileged person understand the situation, but I don't? Am I getting it right? And to be clear, I actually don't want you to answer; instead ask and answer these questions to yourself. I've had this discussion thousands of times in my life, and trust me, I've heard all the answers. And not to be rude, but I don't much care about yours.

By all means, voice your opinion. Please do give your support if you feel you should. And add to the discussion. But don't try to tell marginalised people how they should go about things. What their interests are. How they should behave. How they should feel. We, like you, and any other person in this planet (yes even a child, it has been proven that antagonising children is bad for their development) can sort these things out for themselves. Much like I'm not telling you any of these things. What I am asking you, is to treat me with respect and equality. Much like how you're treated. Thank you.

And I do very much mean it. Do contribute to this discussion. But leave the antagonising rubbish out of it. It serves no purpose whatsoever. And yes I understand that you didn't mean it that way. I'm trying to be direct and confrontational about it, so hopefully you will understand too. And we can have a discussion on equal terms. Because that is so much the issue. You're very welcome, but treat me with the same respect, as I'm sure you mean to, but just didn't realise. That is privilege, we all have been raised with some of it. I had to unlearn much of my white privilege. My behaviour I can change. My skin tone I cannot, and the only thing I can do is try to be aware of my privilege and take responsibility for it by my actions.
"..the worst kind of DARTH one can dig up!"

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
11.28.2012 , 06:25 PM | #3353
Fabiyun, I'm sorry if anything I've posted has come across as being from a position of privilege or if I've ever seemed to be telling people how they should act or feel. Neither of those are ever my intention and I do my utmost to keep my autonomy out of other people's autonomy (hence why I use a lot of "I", "me" and "my" and try to only ever use "we" when referring to definite events in this thread), but if you feel I've been stepping on people's toes or putting words in their mouths just... yeah... tell me to shut up.

The last thing I want to be is the condescending white woman in the room full of people who actually matter.

fabiyun's Avatar


fabiyun
11.28.2012 , 06:28 PM | #3354
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
Fabiyun, I'm sorry if anything I've posted has come across as being from a position of privilege or if I've ever seemed to be telling people how they should act or feel. Neither of those are ever my intention and I do my utmost to keep my autonomy out of other people's autonomy (hence why I use a lot of "I", "me" and "my" and try to only ever use "we" when referring to definite events in this thread), but if you feel I've been stepping on people's toes or putting words in their mouths just... yeah... tell me to shut up.

The last thing I want to be is the condescending white woman in the room full of people who actually matter.
You've never done any of it Tatile. You're wonderful! *hugs*
"..the worst kind of DARTH one can dig up!"

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
11.28.2012 , 06:29 PM | #3355
Quote: Originally Posted by fabiyun View Post
You've never done any of it Tatile. You're wonderful! *hugs*
Sweet! I'll go back to trying to write my fav boys being emotionally intimate without it devolving into weird-awkward make-up sex

And looking at shoes. I have a terrible shoe obsession at the moment ._.

Slaign's Avatar


Slaign
11.28.2012 , 06:30 PM | #3356
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
I posted, quoting MoogleNut. I'll have to buy more tea-bags for tomorrow and the inevitable flaming and I'm going to receive for daring to ask about SGRA's outside of the containment zone.

@Slaign - I've been involved in the discrimination discussion, but at this point I must admit I have very little enthusiasm for it or anything much else besides. It was my (very poorly done, as you can probably tell) attempt at questioning the idea of discrimination from Bioware in an abstract manner. I don't expect **** from Bioware, really. I realise development takes forever and ages and eons, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop asking for at least the basic "are you intending to introduce this content, ever?", even though I know it's not my right to even be in this discussion. Unless of course someone asks me to stop being such an appropriative **** and check my privilege, as it were.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not questioning anyone's right to ask about, insist on, or demand information about this. That would be hypocritical, as I want the information too. I also think it's incorrect to say you don't have a right to expect better from BioWare. I would personally prefer transparency, I just don't expect it. I also don't see why it isn't your right to be in this discussion, in your view.

SGRA content impacts more than just the LGBT community, and that's fine. I am personally not LGBT, I just have a gender preference in games of Female, and would prefer to also romance females. I would have stern words for anyone, LGBT or otherwise, who claims I don't have a right to weigh in on this issue.

Some people are just clinging to the Sword of Discrimination as if it's the only weapon we have in this fight. They act as if discriminatory behavior is the only charge we can make against BioWare that has any merit for why we should get this content. That's simply not true. All we need is the promises we were given, that alone is enough to insist upon the fulfillment of those promises.

fabiyun's Avatar


fabiyun
11.28.2012 , 06:48 PM | #3357
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
Sweet! I'll go back to trying to write my fav boys being emotionally intimate without it devolving into weird-awkward make-up sex

And looking at shoes. I have a terrible shoe obsession at the moment ._.
You know I think you're a wonderful contributor. And that should be said too. I think most who've been keeping this topic alive deserve credit. BW doesn't deserve any, they've not added anything.

You've posted your thoughts, shared your opinions, and you've done so by not being dismissive of other people's concerns. And that is very much what I felt I needed to say. (Oh and you have every right to be in the discussion, we're all human, we all have the same rights)

Share the love.

Maybe we should go shopping together ^_^
"..the worst kind of DARTH one can dig up!"

Nozybidaj's Avatar


Nozybidaj
11.28.2012 , 06:56 PM | #3358
Quote: Originally Posted by Slaign View Post
They act as if discriminatory behavior is the only charge we can make against BioWare that has any merit for why we should get this content.
Discrimination has nothing to do with why we should get this content. The content should have been in the game on day 1 simply because its the right thing to do.

Quote:
That's simply not true. All we need is the promises we were given, that alone is enough to insist upon the fulfillment of those promises.
Personally I don't think we'll get this content promises or not. Discrimination isn't being used here as a weapon to try and force BW to do or say anything. It is simply an adjective that amply describes the way the content and the community has been handled.

I don't think if every GLBT activist group in the country came pounding at EA's door that it would get us this content. So since it is simply all us just here talking amongst ourselves we might as well call it what it is. No reason to beat around the bush about it.

tolaf's Avatar


tolaf
11.28.2012 , 07:01 PM | #3359
This may be a very stupid question to ask, but has anyone ever drafted a formal petition concerning the matter, had others sign it, and then sent it to BW Austin?
Dark Nova leader of the Sin-gie clan

Tatile's Avatar


Tatile
11.28.2012 , 07:01 PM | #3360
Quote: Originally Posted by Slaign View Post
Some people are just clinging to the Sword of Discrimination as if it's the only weapon we have in this fight. They act as if discriminatory behavior is the only charge we can make against BioWare that has any merit for why we should get this content. That's simply not true. All we need is the promises we were given, that alone is enough to insist upon the fulfillment of those promises.
I think that part of the problem is due to the nature of the content, it's hard to not feel that there is an element of discrimination (whether it be homophobic or heterosexist - if the early days of beta are anything to go by, somebody went "durr, straight people" and stopped there), so it is inevitable that it is going to crop up in discussion. Should we bring our grievances to a media body, the topic of discrimination is most definitely going to be talked about, but I don't think it should be the centre of discussion. I think it's important to talk about how we feel this topic and the people involved have been treated, if only so that when discrimination is brought up by outside interviewers, we aren't stuck trying to find our position.

"It is heterocentric because this; there is implication of tacit homophobia because this;" move on, get rid of the idea of discrimination being a point of our subject, but still be sure of our position of it because someone is going to ask.

We are asking for this content to be in the game, but there will always be that looming shadow in the background that during the development cycle of OGRA's, someone decided that LGBT persons either wouldn't be playing this game or didn't deserve to represented at launch. We just have to accept that that cloud is going to forever hang over this discussion, but I do agree that that doesn't mean we should focus on it.


@Fabiyun - I feel in love with a pair of wedge boots from Irregular Choice. 150 and the man still has no idea what to get me for Christmas Last year I wanted Batman comics and ended up with SWTOR instead.


Quote: Originally Posted by tolaf View Post
This may be a very stupid question to ask, but has anyone ever drafted a formal petition concerning the matter, had others sign it, and then sent it to BW Austin?
The major outpouring of emotion and support during beta should have been indication enough, but with a petition there's the issue of advertisement, particularly with how many aggressively homophobic people there are on this forum.