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Healing


Vertex's Avatar


Vertex
04.25.2012 , 02:23 PM | #21
Removing trauma debuff would fix the state of healers. Damage would still be high enough to burst healers down due to expertise and healing would be high enough to save yourself and others from sticky situations.
Winfrey
Sawbones Scoundrel
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ebado's Avatar


ebado
04.25.2012 , 02:24 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by laiboch View Post
The issue has nothing to do with the healers ability to heal. The real issue is Expertise...

My Marauder is running about 1250 Expertise... I have over a 23% damage increase and about 18% damage decrease. Any time damage boost is that much higher than damage mitigation you will run into the issue that is happening now. The other side of that coin is if damage is mitigated to much then it becomes impossible to kill a healer (AKA Rift Wardens). So Bioware seems to be having issues finding that balance between damage bonus and damage reduction in their Expertise system.

So which side to they error on? One that makes DPS kill people so fast they get whiplash from returning to the med center or the one that makes players pound their head into their desk because even with 2 healers on them they get blown up so fast they get whiplash from returning to the med center?

Another issue compounding this is the "bolster" effect you get in PVP. Right off the bat you take a reduction in your ability to heal. This "Bolster" buff is worthless and does NOTHING to improve 50 PVP.

Over all I have to give Bioware props with trying to copy a WOW mechanic and failing.
It's interesting that you say they "failed" to copy a a WoW mechanic (I'm assuming you're talking about resilience) when 1) resilience and expertise are significantly different 2) the lack of a tramua effect and the nature of resilience in WoW has lead to exactly what you complain about above, which is unkillable, godlike healers, something that isn't the case in TOR.
kolto and corrosives
window legacy - the bastion

ebado's Avatar


ebado
04.25.2012 , 02:24 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Vertex View Post
Removing trauma debuff would fix the state of healers. Damage would still be high enough to burst healers down due to expertise and healing would be high enough to save yourself and others from sticky situations.
Removing the trauma debuff would make healers more powerful than pre 1.2 by a significant, almost laughably unbalanced margin.
kolto and corrosives
window legacy - the bastion

cycao's Avatar


cycao
04.25.2012 , 02:27 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by ebado View Post
Removing the trauma debuff would make healers more powerful than pre 1.2 by a significant, almost laughably unbalanced margin.
Yeah but it would be interesting to see an 8v8 match with 4 healers on each team racking up around 800k healing each with 0 deaths 0 kills and whole heap of damage with no end result.

Keyran-Halcyon's Avatar


Keyran-Halcyon
04.25.2012 , 02:31 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Vertex View Post
Having trouble replying as I am currently in Ops. Of course I am using Emergency Medpack, and yes, even with 3 stacks of upper hand against a marauder slowed by leg blast. If i am under 30% health with my surge/crit relic up spamming Emergency Medpack I still die. What is the point in Emergency Medpack if it can't keep me alive against 1 dps with my relic popped?
Well the biggest issue is who you are trying to heal through. Marauders were designed as the counter for healers, with their heal debuff. I feel you pain since now there are 3 or more of them in every warzone.

Also I suggest changing you relics, when I play heals I use a power relic, Rakata power adrenal, and defense relic.

What stats are you stacking as well? I found that switching my mods to drop my alacrity and getting more Power helps alot. Since most of our heals are instant or hots, alacrity doesn't help us as much. I aim for keeping my crit above 30%, my surge above 70% and then stackin mainly power. I do have some alacrity mods, just enough to get UWM to a 1.8s heal. But more power=bigger heals always. Crit and Surge= the CHANCE of bigger heals
Rogue Heals
<Art Supplies>
Captain Hng Slo & Master Teh-Hauss

Vertex's Avatar


Vertex
04.25.2012 , 02:35 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by cycao View Post
Yeah but it would be interesting to see an 8v8 match with 4 healers on each team racking up around 800k healing each with 0 deaths 0 kills and whole heap of damage with no end result.
That wouldn't happen. The state the game is in right now means that even with 4 healers and 4 tanks the healers could be killed by melee trains focus targetting them. With 2 or 3 marauders on a healer it is impossible to keep them up even with 3 other healers spamming heals on them - they will die so fast it wont matter.
Winfrey
Sawbones Scoundrel
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Zalgred's Avatar


Zalgred
04.25.2012 , 02:41 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Vertex View Post
That wouldn't happen. The state the game is in right now means that even with 4 healers and 4 tanks the healers could be killed by melee trains focus targetting them. With 2 or 3 marauders on a healer it is impossible to keep them up even with 3 other healers spamming heals on them - they will die so fast it wont matter.
I agree.

Healers are very squishy right now... And that will not change if they remove the trauma debuff. Focus dps from 2 or more opponents will kill a healer no matter what, but if healers are left alone they can change the balance of a match, like it should be...

Healers must be easy to kill, but also they should be able to save players from death... What they cannot do is survive and heal at the same time, like it was before patch 1.2

SinnedWill's Avatar


SinnedWill
04.25.2012 , 02:43 PM | #28
1.) Terrible idea comparing sentinel burst damage with an ops/scoundrel healing while standing still, not using stuns, interrupts, combat cloaks, mezzes. Basically the sentinel is using 80% of his abilities while you're only using 40% - that's a guaranteed fail test. Furthermore, you shouldn't use marauders/sentinels to be your test subjects.

2.) Ops/Scoundrels are best at sustained healing, mobile healing, and HoT's. Mobility is key to their survival. If a melee jumps to you, you kick them in the nuts, remove DoT's and Snares and continue moving - if they stunbreak, you wait for them to force charge to catch you again, and flashbang to escape. (OR first time they charge you, you cleanse DoT's/Snares then combat cloak). Furthermore, ops/scoundrel healers have the weakest versions of targeted activation time heals (since they are BEST at sustained healing/HoT). Mercs/Commandos have the strongest targeted heals (I've see ONE heal restore > 60% of a Vanguard's health) and with their cooldown, they cannot be interrupted (stuns/knockbacks still work, though). Sage/Sorc healers are decent with clutch heals and sustained heals (primarily due to the fact that their bubble behaves as a proactive heal).

3.) Healers are still incredibly effective post 1.2, but many people don't understand certain factors: if you max out a companion's affection and complete all of their quests, they give every character in your legacy a buff - one of your companions will give you an increase to healing RECEIVED (this value cannot be seen via any tooltip, but it's at least 5%) - it is very easy for one ops/scoundrel healer to keep the majority of their team alive if all its members have this passive bonus (companion bonuses apply at all times - pvp included).

4.) Most melee and high burst-damage classes counter healers (even tank-specced melees can prevent a lot of healing from healers, though their damage isn't enough to kill a melee with the exception of sins/shadows). Marauders/Sentinels and Sins/Shadows should always dish out enough damage to kill a healer or that healer's target (depending on how squishy the target is). However, it is very difficult for most burst dps classes to do much when there are paired healers - best healer to counter the big burst damage classes is merc/commando due to the significant clutch heals.

5.) Though this is only my opinion, best healer pairs are sorc/sage + ops/scounds. The sorc/sage first throws a bubble on the target before healing them while the scound/ops uses HoT's initially - typically the bubble buys enough time for the ops/scound's HoT's to bring the target back up beyond execution point and enough time for their activated heals to be useful. Then again, 2 x ops/scoundrel healers can typically yield the same result, but but bubble from a healer sorc/sage might save someone that the ops/scounds couldn't. I've also seen 3 x sorc/sage healers cluster up with a sniper/gunslinger (whom throws up the 20% damage reduction area barrier) be IMMENSELY effective since the sorc/sages healbomb the ground they're all located. Makes for a very good defense at the southern objective in novare coast and voidstar doors (voidstar less as effective since there are 2 locations to defend, however).

The elite healers on my server are incredibly powerful. As I've mentioned before that one good Ops/Scound has kept most of our team alive in WZ's, this player (and 2 others) typically net 550-600k healing in a voistar match that goes full duration and they are very difficult to kill. Sure, if we aren't protecting them from the burst dps's that go after 'em, then they have to focus on healing themselves and not us, so everyone knows to protect them by stunning, rooting, slowing, and even out-right killing any significant dps that tries chasing their speedy jumpy butts! lol
Mains: TheSinner - Madness Sorc; Scornful - Carnage Marauder
Minis: Scorned - Deception Assassin; Sinbane - Pyro Powertech; Sinborn - Marksman Sniper
Guild: Physics
Server: The Shadowlands by way of Dreshdae Cantina.

SinnedWill's Avatar


SinnedWill
04.25.2012 , 02:50 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by cycao View Post
Yeah but it would be interesting to see an 8v8 match with 4 healers on each team racking up around 800k healing each with 0 deaths 0 kills and whole heap of damage with no end result.
I see matches like this right now, even with the trauma debuff. Although one healer usually gets 600k+ and the others only get 200-400k with 0 deaths for both teams, and my total damage was 726k and I even had about 120k healing (as a madness sorc and never using an actual heal, mind you). Still don't know what the determining factor is for voidstar ties with room 1 stalemates. If there even IS a determining factor, it isn't working correctly IMO.
Mains: TheSinner - Madness Sorc; Scornful - Carnage Marauder
Minis: Scorned - Deception Assassin; Sinbane - Pyro Powertech; Sinborn - Marksman Sniper
Guild: Physics
Server: The Shadowlands by way of Dreshdae Cantina.

Vertex's Avatar


Vertex
04.25.2012 , 02:54 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by SinnedWill View Post
1.) Terrible idea comparing sentinel burst damage with an ops/scoundrel healing while standing still, not using stuns, interrupts, combat cloaks, mezzes. Basically the sentinel is using 80% of his abilities while you're only using 40% - that's a guaranteed fail test. Furthermore, you shouldn't use marauders/sentinels to be your test subjects.

2.) Ops/Scoundrels are best at sustained healing, mobile healing, and HoT's. Mobility is key to their survival. If a melee jumps to you, you kick them in the nuts, remove DoT's and Snares and continue moving - if they stunbreak, you wait for them to force charge to catch you again, and flashbang to escape. (OR first time they charge you, you cleanse DoT's/Snares then combat cloak). Furthermore, ops/scoundrel healers have the weakest versions of targeted activation time heals (since they are BEST at sustained healing/HoT). Mercs/Commandos have the strongest targeted heals (I've see ONE heal restore > 60% of a Vanguard's health) and with their cooldown, they cannot be interrupted (stuns/knockbacks still work, though). Sage/Sorc healers are decent with clutch heals and sustained heals (primarily due to the fact that their bubble behaves as a proactive heal).

3.) Healers are still incredibly effective post 1.2, but many people don't understand certain factors: if you max out a companion's affection and complete all of their quests, they give every character in your legacy a buff - one of your companions will give you an increase to healing RECEIVED (this value cannot be seen via any tooltip, but it's at least 5%) - it is very easy for one ops/scoundrel healer to keep the majority of their team alive if all its members have this passive bonus (companion bonuses apply at all times - pvp included).

4.) Most melee and high burst-damage classes counter healers (even tank-specced melees can prevent a lot of healing from healers, though their damage isn't enough to kill a melee with the exception of sins/shadows). Marauders/Sentinels and Sins/Shadows should always dish out enough damage to kill a healer or that healer's target (depending on how squishy the target is). However, it is very difficult for most burst dps classes to do much when there are paired healers - best healer to counter the big burst damage classes is merc/commando due to the significant clutch heals.

5.) Though this is only my opinion, best healer pairs are sorc/sage + ops/scounds. The sorc/sage first throws a bubble on the target before healing them while the scound/ops uses HoT's initially - typically the bubble buys enough time for the ops/scound's HoT's to bring the target back up beyond execution point and enough time for their activated heals to be useful. Then again, 2 x ops/scoundrel healers can typically yield the same result, but but bubble from a healer sorc/sage might save someone that the ops/scounds couldn't. I've also seen 3 x sorc/sage healers cluster up with a sniper/gunslinger (whom throws up the 20% damage reduction area barrier) be IMMENSELY effective since the sorc/sages healbomb the ground they're all located. Makes for a very good defense at the southern objective in novare coast and voidstar doors (voidstar less as effective since there are 2 locations to defend, however).

The elite healers on my server are incredibly powerful. As I've mentioned before that one good Ops/Scound has kept most of our team alive in WZ's, this player (and 2 others) typically net 550-600k healing in a voistar match that goes full duration and they are very difficult to kill. Sure, if we aren't protecting them from the burst dps's that go after 'em, then they have to focus on healing themselves and not us, so everyone knows to protect them by stunning, rooting, slowing, and even out-right killing any significant dps that tries chasing their speedy jumpy butts! lol

Okay well I agree with most of what you are saying. Thanks for taking the time to write a constructive reply.
One thing I will say is that Scoundrels being a HoT/Sustain healer is absolutely useless in PVP. I always have 1 Slow-Release medpack up to proc upper hand, but other than that the actual HoT itself is totally useless as people die to quickly for it to even tick.
Winfrey
Sawbones Scoundrel
DeSun