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Operative/Scoundrel = useless classes in pve and pvp after the 2x nerf

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Operative/Scoundrel = useless classes in pve and pvp after the 2x nerf

Maryuss's Avatar


Maryuss
04.23.2012 , 04:45 PM | #1
Is that so ? Why a operative or scoundrel doesnt have the burst of other classes ? Why cant they have a backstab and backblast equal to other classes for example the smash of the rage specced juggernauts and marauders since their cd is pretty much the same ? Why not balance the classes depending on their role and their armor. For example a light armor class to have big burst, a medium armor class to medium burst and a heavy armor to have a lower burst. This game have a problem tbh I see heavy armor classes that have a huge burst which they dont deserve.
Am i the only one that thinks the classes are very unbalanced ?

V-Serp's Avatar


V-Serp
04.23.2012 , 05:05 PM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Maryuss View Post
Is that so ? Why a operative or scoundrel doesnt have the burst of other classes ? Why cant they have a backstab and backblast equal to other classes for example the smash of the rage specced juggernauts and marauders since their cd is pretty much the same ? Why not balance the classes depending on their role and their armor. For example a light armor class to have big burst, a medium armor class to medium burst and a heavy armor to have a lower burst. This game have a problem tbh I see heavy armor classes that have a huge burst which they dont deserve.
Am i the only one that thinks the classes are very unbalanced ?
It's extremely unbalanced, it might be the best overall class in the game. Maras are better at pure damage it's true, but those Scoundrels/Operatives are now by far the best healers in the game, and can keep an entire team up if they're skilled. They can pop off 500k healing numbers in warzones while chipping in 170k damage or so, which is an insane total contribution.

DarkHelsing's Avatar


DarkHelsing
04.23.2012 , 05:07 PM | #3
If you want to join us here too, please do.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...16#post4058016
Expertise - Fear the Gear, not the Player!

maticlandarr's Avatar


maticlandarr
04.23.2012 , 05:18 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Maryuss View Post
Is that so ? Why a operative or scoundrel doesnt have the burst of other classes ? Why cant they have a backstab and backblast equal to other classes for example the smash of the rage specced juggernauts and marauders since their cd is pretty much the same ? Why not balance the classes depending on their role and their armor. For example a light armor class to have big burst, a medium armor class to medium burst and a heavy armor to have a lower burst. This game have a problem tbh I see heavy armor classes that have a huge burst which they dont deserve.
Am i the only one that thinks the classes are very unbalanced ?
You are not a game designer. Clearly. And that is why you think you see imbalance everywhere. That and you dont seem ti understand how armor works or the fact that not every spec is bursty.

belialle's Avatar


belialle
04.23.2012 , 05:41 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by V-Serp View Post
It's extremely unbalanced, it might be the best overall class in the game. Maras are better at pure damage it's true, but those Scoundrels/Operatives are now by far the best healers in the game, and can keep an entire team up if they're skilled. They can pop off 500k healing numbers in warzones while chipping in 170k damage or so, which is an insane total contribution.
I'm sorry, but the little adjustments to operative healing did not boost their healing output. In fact, their overall healing output in PvP is lower now due to the changes to expertise. In fact, the only buff to their actual healing output was the 10% buff to their AoE heal.....and it's on a longer cooldown now to balance that out. If they are trying to "win" the meters at the end, sure, it's easy if all they ever do is spam dots and hots on everyone they see. But that's not contributing nearly as much to a win as someone who is hard casting heals on node defenders, ball carriers, and tanks who are actually tanking.

IMO, they should just remove the scoreboard at the end of the games away entirely. It's difficult -- if not impossible -- to interpret the numbers. They are meaningless. Sure, I can top meters by spamming AoE, but I would contribute more if I were peeling marauders off my healers, yanking enemy healers out of guard range, knocking sorcs off my catwalks so they can't pull enemy ball carriers, etc.

Since that will never happen, though, maybe they should just break down and give us real damage meters so that we can better interpret the total damage/healing output numbers. I'm more interested in my numbers on a single given fight......adding up all the numbers and showing the grand total at the end is just worthless.

S__T's Avatar


S__T
04.23.2012 , 05:46 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by belialle View Post
I'm sorry, but the little adjustments to operative healing did not boost their healing output. In fact, their overall healing output in PvP is lower now due to the changes to expertise. In fact, the only buff to their actual healing output was the 10% buff to their AoE heal.....and it's on a longer cooldown now to balance that out. If they are trying to "win" the meters at the end, sure, it's easy if all they ever do is spam dots and hots on everyone they see. But that's not contributing nearly as much to a win as someone who is hard casting heals on node defenders and ball carriers.

IMO, they should just take the scoreboard at the end of the games away entirely. It's difficult -- if not impossible -- to interpret the numbers. They are meaningless. Sure, I can top meters by spamming AoE, but I would contribute more if I were peeling marauders off my healers, yanking enemy healers out of guard range, knocking sorcs off my catwalks so they can't pull enemy ball carriers, etc.

Since that will never happen, though, maybe they should just break down and give us real damage meters so that we can better interpret the total damage/healing output numbers. I'm more interested in my numbers on a single given fight......adding up all the numbers and showing the grand total at the end is just worthless.
1.Operative healers now have a MUCH easier time with energy management.
2.The stacking buff stacks up to 3, instead of 2, for 2% more healing output passively, alternatively an extra free instant.
3.The AoE heal buff you said.
4.Healing output from Expertise DID increase, but only around 1% for healers before/after 1.2 expertise changes.
5.An operative is designed to hot multiple people, they're EXCELLENT at smoothing out damage, and weak at single target focusing. They're also the most mobile which makes them have the highest survivability against ranged targets. You complained about the weakness of their single target heal but ignored their god-tier mobility and capacity to heal multiple targets easily.
6.You also ignored the fact that operatives get shut down the LEAST by Marauders or any melee, due to the majority of their healing coming from instant HoTs/instant casts.

You can't have it all. Operatives are in a MUCH better place when speaking of their healing.

Macroecon's Avatar


Macroecon
04.23.2012 , 06:04 PM | #7
The OP was referring to dps Operatives which have been nerfed heavily.

But yeah Operative healers are the best in the game. The much lower TTK has penalized the Operative healer much less than the other healers because of their ability to heal instantly when their health is down. The other healing subclasses are squishy. The Operative healer is not. Huge difference in 1.2.

belialle's Avatar


belialle
04.23.2012 , 06:12 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by S__T View Post
1.Operative healers now have a MUCH easier time with energy management.

Yes, it's easier. I wouldn't say that it's MUCH easier. It is a bit easier though. It probably needed to be easier, particularly for the new PvE content.

2.The stacking buff stacks up to 3, instead of 2, for 2% more healing output passively, alternatively an extra free instant.

It doesn't work that way. You either have TA and get the bonus or you don't. It doesn't matter how many stacks you have except that you are more likely to have TA now than before. Considering that this is a 3 point talent investment, I think it was probably always intended that medic operatives should be able to maintain at least one stack of TA fairly easily.

4.Healing output from Expertise DID increase, but only around 1% for healers before/after 1.2 expertise changes.

Admittedly, I was guessing, based on the numbers that I've seen on the scoreboard from various healers of all classes since the patch.


5.An operative is designed to hot multiple people, they're EXCELLENT at smoothing out damage, and weak at single target focusing. They're also the most mobile which makes them have the highest survivability against ranged targets. You complained about the weakness of their single target heal but ignored their god-tier mobility and capacity to heal multiple targets easily.

Operatives aren't designed to roll perma-HoTs over an entire raid. That's a good way to **** up your energy regen, which could really suck if you need to hard cast a big heal on an important friendly target. And where did I complain about their single target healing? I didn't. You must have misread what I stated. To reiterate, what I said is that single target healing is what can make the difference between a win and a loss. HoTs rolling on a few people here and there won't win the game. It might "win" the scoreboard at the end though.

Look, the fact that you refer to their single target healing as "weak" is further proof that you don't really understand how they work. They have never had weak single target heals. They do have trouble casting single target heals over and over again because they will mess up their energy regen very quickly if they need to do a lot of burst healing. Burst healing is hard on all healers when it comes to resource management.



6.You also ignored the fact that operatives get shut down the LEAST by Marauders or any melee, due to the majority of their healing coming from instant HoTs/instant casts.

Let's not overstate how "awesome" their instant heals are. Surgial Probe crits for 2-2.5k, and if you are getting focused by a marauder, casting Kolto Probe on yourself is not going to be very helpful at all. It only takes one good marauder to effectively shut down an operative. Interrupt their hard cast heal, and they are pretty much ****ed as long as the marauder wasn't stupid enough to white bar them and waste their stun before they got the medic op to 30%. A melee operative is probably even better at this because they are more likely to understand that they need to save their stun for when the medic op drops below 30%.



I'm just tired of seeing misinformation about various classes being posted as fact on the forums here by people who want to get x class nerfed or buffed or whatever.

As for the OP, you must be doing something wrong because there are still some very strong melee operatives on my server. There are even some Lethality operatives, but they don't concern me much. The only thing they seem to have is impressive numbers on the ending scoreboard, and I've already stated why I am skeptical of those. :]

Omnilulz's Avatar


Omnilulz
04.24.2012 , 08:05 PM | #9
If you think Operative/Scoundrel is useless, then the fact of the matter is, it's not the class, it's you...
I'm an Operative myself, healing in PvE, although my numbers haven't increased a whole lot, I have a way easier time keeping my energy managed and keeping the tank up. I mean... 6-7k heals + an instant 3k heal after that... How are we useless exactly?

Just note: Operatives aren't designed to be raid healers, they're designed to be tank healers. Which is why our AoE was completely useless pre-patch.

In PvP... Well if you spec right and you keep your TA's up, you're pretty much unbeatable unless they're bashing your face with 2+ people. Mainly because 90% of people don't know what to interrupt when and when to start bursting.

I haven't really bothered with PvP on my operative since 1.2, nor have I tried Concealment/Lethality since then, mainly because I'm constantly raiding or PvPing on my alt.
So I wouldn't know about those specs, but 1 thing is sure, as I said earlier, if you think Operative/Scoundrel is useless, it's not the class... It's YOU

kkthxbai

Migrayn's Avatar


Migrayn
04.24.2012 , 08:17 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by V-Serp View Post
It's extremely unbalanced, it might be the best overall class in the game. Maras are better at pure damage it's true, but those Scoundrels/Operatives are now by far the best healers in the game, and can keep an entire team up if they're skilled. They can pop off 500k healing numbers in warzones while chipping in 170k damage or so, which is an insane total contribution.
Please show a screenshot of such a feat. In wRzonez now everyone dies to fast to keep anyone healed let alone keep an entire team alive. Most healers can't even keep themself alive to all the massive dps.

Operatives have been unjustly nerfed more then any other class. The minor fix to a 31 point talent in tbe healing tree hardly makes them the best at anything.

Dps operatives are far easier to kill then any other dps. Tanks can aoe hit harder then operatives can hit. The longer cooldown on the main non stealth attack is a slap in the face. It throws off our rotations and lowerers our already pittifull out of stealth combat.
Originally Posted by Greg Zoeller:
If we leave the Operative the ability to stun lock and kill people ó yes, there arenít many Operatives ó but over the long term, that means people will quit the game cause itís not fun.