Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

morality system is bad ?


RastaMonkeyXD's Avatar


RastaMonkeyXD
04.05.2012 , 01:06 PM | #1
i have a major gripe with the morality system in swtor . the morality is so binary its either good or evil , kill the innocent slave or walk away this is worse as i dont consider not mindlessly slaughtering someone as a light side choice in real life if your murder someone you did a favor for you would be sent to prison and you wouldnt be rewarded for just walking away . i can either be a shining beacon of hope or a sadistic muderer lusting for power . i would rather have a more complex system than a straight path to good or evil . for example have more options rather than having a single darkside option have different types of evil such as greed or sadism . i think this would add to the story telling and character development . after all swtor is a role playing game this should mean you can mould your character to your will . you should be able to develop a personality like one of your companions . for example gault rennow who is a greedy son of a hutt but will draw the line at violence even if there is a large sum of credits on the table . thanks for reading this and id love to hear your opinions

VanorDM's Avatar


VanorDM
04.05.2012 , 01:11 PM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by RastaMonkeyXD View Post
i have a major gripe with the morality system in swtor . the morality is so binary its either good or evil...
Well the movies were pretty much based on a very binary Good vs Evil plot line. The black and white nature of Star Wars is pretty well known and documented.

Light side vs Dark side, with no real gray area in between.

So it's fitting that they keep up with that theme in SWTOR. Other bioware games like say Dragons Age is much more nuanced and allows a lot of shades of gray.

DeutschGamer's Avatar


DeutschGamer
04.05.2012 , 01:43 PM | #3
No the morality system isn't bad. There is only so much you can do with 3 choices anyway, especially with the the limited storytelling branches the game has to offer.

Besides Light and Dark side is very black and white as it has been in most star wars games.

BlueSouthPike's Avatar


BlueSouthPike
04.05.2012 , 02:24 PM | #4
The morality system fits for Star Wars, and it fits well, so I don't think it's by any means bad. But I do acknowledge that there are some rough spots and arbitrary choices to be found.

There are quite a few quests, for example, that do their best to be morally grey. They set up both involved parties as neither particularly evil (or good, as the case may be), and they ask the player to resolve the conflict in a single way. All a very good setup, but it's eventually undone by then assigning an arbitrary Light or Dark value to an action that could be considered fair and just from -ahem- "A certain point of view".

Take the Ord Mantell quest revolving around stolen medicine: There is a clear darkside choice (threatening the kid), but if that option (which paints the player in a bad light, not either of the involved parties) is not taken, then the quest remains rather gray. The refugees need the medicine because they're pressed for supplies, the soldiers need the medicine to continue to fight and presumably continue to protect the refugees. Then, the end of the quest throws a rather jarring choice of good vs. bad at the player with giving the medicine to the refugees becoming the "good" outcome while giving the medicine to the soldiers becomes the "bad" choice.

Now, I can understand having a binary Light/Dark morality for Jedi and Sith, as they're much more in tune with the Force and therefore their moral choices influence how they percieve the Force and such, but for the rest of the classes (non-Force-Sensetive Govenment employees and freelancers), such a binary morality makes less sense. Tracking Idealism (or some similar value) vs. Cynicism/Pragmatism (or similar values) might work better, but I don't think that such a clear-cut "Good vs. Bad" system fits for the "Normal" Classes (especially the Agents, Smugglers, and Bounty Hunters, who's very professions are morally ambiguous and of questionable legality to begin with. Troopers, at the very least, presumably have some military code of conduct that they're supposed to adhere to).

Captain_Zone's Avatar


Captain_Zone
04.05.2012 , 02:35 PM | #5
There are very few truly Grey characters in Star Wars, and none of them are in G-Canon.

Even the "Grey Jedi" as far as G-Canon (and now C-Canon) goes aren't even really grey. They're lightsiders who just happen to disagree with the Jedi Council.

Back when Jolee Bindo and Kyle Katarn really were grey characters, things were better, imo. Now, according to George Lucas, Good is good and evil is evil, and there is no middle ground. Even at the expense of common sense. The Force forbid anyone like Jolee Bindo, Kyle Katarn, or Revan could come along and actually USE both sides of the Force equally and still make rational decisions! Nope! Can't have that now! That would make waaaayyyy too much sense!

But hey, it's His IP, and if he says it, it's Law. *shrugs*
. OPOD
Shivalka: Darth Baras is quite large, isn't he?
Joran Karn: You, my dear Sith, have just mastered the art of understatement.

BlueSouthPike's Avatar


BlueSouthPike
04.05.2012 , 02:47 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Captain_Zone View Post
There are very few truly Grey characters in Star Wars, and none of them are in G-Canon.

Even the "Grey Jedi" as far as G-Canon (and now C-Canon) goes aren't even really grey. They're lightsiders who just happen to disagree with the Jedi Council.

Back when Jolee Bindo and Kyle Katarn really were grey characters, things were better, imo. Now, according to George Lucas, Good is good and evil is evil, and there is no middle ground. Even at the expense of common sense. The Force forbid anyone like Jolee Bindo, Kyle Katarn, or Revan could come along and actually USE both sides of the Force equally and still make rational decisions! Nope! Can't have that now! That would make waaaayyyy too much sense!

But hey, it's His IP, and if he says it, it's Law. *shrugs*
The "Good is Good, Bad is Bad" idea makes sense for Force-users, but to apply that to everyone else is not a good idea, as far as I'm concerned. Think about G-Canon; Han Solo started off as being motivated purely by fame and fortune, Boba Fett was just a man doing a job (to put it simply, there's plenty of other reasons behind his actions, but money was a big motivation for him), Lando had to screw over his friend for the good of his city, a lot of Imperials are just normal people working for a bad regime, etc. There are several grey characters in G-Canon (or characters that start out grey), but none of them are into the Force. So, why do our characters, who are supposed to follow similar archetypes, affected by binary Force morality, even though they shouldn't be?

Captain_Zone's Avatar


Captain_Zone
04.05.2012 , 03:02 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by BlueSouthPike View Post
The "Good is Good, Bad is Bad" idea makes sense for Force-users, but to apply that to everyone else is not a good idea, as far as I'm concerned. Think about G-Canon; Han Solo started off as being motivated purely by fame and fortune, Boba Fett was just a man doing a job (to put it simply, there's plenty of other reasons behind his actions, but money was a big motivation for him), Lando had to screw over his friend for the good of his city, a lot of Imperials are just normal people working for a bad regime, etc. There are several grey characters in G-Canon (or characters that start out grey), but none of them are into the Force. So, why do our characters, who are supposed to follow similar archetypes, affected by binary Force morality, even though they shouldn't be?
Good points, but... and you knew there was a but coming... I have run my Agent and BH as grey, since they make the most logical decision based on what motivates them more. My BH had Creds on the brain for my entire playthrough on him. My Agent does what's best for the Empire, and to make a quick buck. So yeah, he's Light I and holding steady. He makes the practical choice based on "What's best for the Empire?" and "How can I make some Creds from this situation?"

Some of the practical decisions are Light Side, and some are Dark Side. All depends on the situation at hand.
. OPOD
Shivalka: Darth Baras is quite large, isn't he?
Joran Karn: You, my dear Sith, have just mastered the art of understatement.

DeutschGamer's Avatar


DeutschGamer
04.05.2012 , 03:09 PM | #8
Light and Dark side points shouldn't affect non-forcers users at all imo. They should have an alternate morality system, as the force doesn't directly affect them like it does Jedi and Sith.

Captain_Zone's Avatar


Captain_Zone
04.05.2012 , 03:52 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by DeutschGamer View Post
Light and Dark side points shouldn't affect non-forcers users at all imo. They should have an alternate morality system, as the force doesn't directly affect them like it does Jedi and Sith.
For every decision, a consequence. I love that BioWare does this in their games, but yes, you're right. Now, I do toggle off the DS Corruption effects on my non-Force using characters. That's pretty much as good as it's going to get for now, though.
. OPOD
Shivalka: Darth Baras is quite large, isn't he?
Joran Karn: You, my dear Sith, have just mastered the art of understatement.

septembersphinx's Avatar


septembersphinx
04.05.2012 , 04:17 PM | #10
The LS/DS morality system, as it is canonically present, makes sense to use as a standard, even for non force users and because philosophically the force flows through everyone. It just can't be manipulated by non force users.

I do think it's a bit odd that, unless you turn it off, the dark side shows on people who don't draw on it, however immoral their choices.

But I don't see a problem with applying the same moral system to all characters, regardless of their beliefs. It's not necessary to rigorously follow it, unless that's what that particular character believes.