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An Appeal to Bioware Regarding Operations Difficulty and Design

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Flashpoints, Operations, and Heroic Missions
An Appeal to Bioware Regarding Operations Difficulty and Design

jingadingdangdo's Avatar


jingadingdangdo
02.19.2012 , 09:42 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by ademnus View Post
first, you need to remember (or realize if you werent here in these forums since '08) that the vast majority of community members voted against raiding of any kind at all. This game was never meant to be wow. But raids are here and that's great for those who like that. But i don't think Bioware should tune up raid difficulty to "hardcore wow raid guild" difficulty because of a very few guilds. I wouldn't mind seeing a harder MODE for those who elect to enjoy it, and a SLIGHTLY improved set of rewards, but once they become the end-all be-all rewards, those without hardcore guilds and elevated status within those guilds become the galactic beggars. I think BW was smart for not creating the very sense of elitism and exclusion that so many originally clamored against on these forums.
The three difficulty modes inherently represent the choice that can be made to play on a harder difficulty for those who enjoy it. I was very clear in my post that I think normal mode has been tuned correctly but that hard and nightmare mode content have been both inadequately tuned and inadequately incentivized.

The one thing I do agree with you on is that the gear difference between the tiers does not need to be very big although for me this is more to prevent stat inflation than anything else.
Jinga - Raid Leader of <Retribution>

16 man - World 5th clear of EC Hard Mode. World ranked 6th overall.
Seeking exceptional applicants, apply now at retribution-guild.net

jingadingdangdo's Avatar


jingadingdangdo
02.19.2012 , 09:45 AM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Jest View Post
Given that Nightmare currently gives out almost completely identical gear as Hardmode.. it should not be tuned as you're suggesting yet.
My post already goes over my thoughts on hard mode and nightmare mode rewarding the same grade of loot so this is a moot point. The point of my post is not to go over things as they are but how I think they should be. My point is simply that both changes would need to be made - it is plainly obvious, as you have pointed out, that it would not be feasible to re-tune the raids without re-turning the gear.

Additionally, I also conceded in my original post that it is not a good idea to make these changes in the current tier of content. If anything these are all changes which should be implemented for the next tier of content, not before.
Jinga - Raid Leader of <Retribution>

16 man - World 5th clear of EC Hard Mode. World ranked 6th overall.
Seeking exceptional applicants, apply now at retribution-guild.net

Jest's Avatar


Jest
02.19.2012 , 10:03 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by jingadingdangdo View Post
My post already goes over my thoughts on hard mode and nightmare mode rewarding the same grade of loot so this is a moot point. The point of my post is not to go over things as they are but how I think they should be. My point is simply that both changes would need to be made - it is plainly obvious, as you have pointed out, that it would not be feasible to re-tune the raids without re-turning the gear.

Additionally, I also conceded in my original post that it is not a good idea to make these changes in the current tier of content. If anything these are all changes which should be implemented for the next tier of content, not before.
You can't discuss how things should be if you're not discussing how things are now. Suggesting things be changed without regarding likely reasons for why it is currently is unwise and a little insulting towards the designers.

Your post, while very well written, is pretty unnecessary as it's just an amalgamation of the complaints and suggestions being made in a variety of other threads. Especially since you posted this thread and have since proceeded to respond to most discussion points with (paraphrasing here) "I covered this in my post so it's not worth discussing."

You've just as much right to post a thread as anyone else... but you may want to consider fleshing out full discussions with those that post in the thread so as to make it more useful to everyone. Just a suggestion.

matmert's Avatar


matmert
02.19.2012 , 10:24 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Jest View Post
You can't discuss how things should be if you're not discussing how things are now. Suggesting things be changed without regarding likely reasons for why it is currently is unwise and a little insulting towards the designers.

Your post, while very well written, is pretty unnecessary as it's just an amalgamation of the complaints and suggestions being made in a variety of other threads. Especially since you posted this thread and have since proceeded to respond to most discussion points with (paraphrasing here) "I covered this in my post so it's not worth discussing."

You've just as much right to post a thread as anyone else... but you may want to consider fleshing out full discussions with those that post in the thread so as to make it more useful to everyone. Just a suggestion.
sorry but i cant take it are you happy with game how it is now ?

mostly bugged in pvp and pve
ui is not useful at all

if i start to write bugs where i know i thing you will need whole new forum for it
thats why stop with that attitude and protect a half ended game this game need to be in beta test but if im not wrong because of EA they start it before development work finish and now we pay and just get useless little fixes

but i still have hope i thing they will change things in future hope i can wait

jingadingdangdo's Avatar


jingadingdangdo
02.19.2012 , 10:31 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Jest View Post
You can't discuss how things should be if you're not discussing how things are now. Suggesting things be changed without regarding likely reasons for why it is currently is unwise and a little insulting towards the designers.
I'm obviously discussing how things are now if I am discussing how they should be. This is the whole point of my critique - I have examined the current raid design and I am very critical of it. It is my intention to be critical of it because I believe the current design is especially poor. My whole argument is constructed around how things are now.

If you want to challenge me on not examining more closely why things are the way they are now then that is a valid criticism. I did not put any emphasis on this in my original post although it is something I have given an awful lot of consideration toward. To be totally honest I simply cannot fathom why the design is currently the way it is. It makes no logical sense whatsoever to have 3 difficulty modes if you don't plan to to actually make use of that capacity for the differentiation of difficulty. If their goal is simply to make a game where all raid content is easily beaten then having 3 difficulty modes is utterly superfluous.

Quote: Originally Posted by Jest View Post
Especially since you posted this thread and have since proceeded to respond to most discussion points with (paraphrasing here) "I covered this in my post so it's not worth discussing."
I'm not saying that it is not worth discussing at all. Your initial post challenging my argument referred to a point that I am simply not making. For example I never suggested any of these fixes should be implemented in isolation which seemed to be your main critique of my argument. See below:

Quote: Originally Posted by Jest View Post
If they tune Nighmare to the extent that you're suggesting now while still dropping the same gear that's available in Hardmode... there would be very little reason to run it.
For that criticism to be valid I would have had to say somewhere that they should implement my proposed changes to raid tuning while NOT implementing the proposed changes I suggested under the problem of gear differentiation. If you can find anywhere I stated or even suggested such I'll eat my hat.

The TLDR version is that I'm simply saying your argument is criticizing a point I never made in the first place and is thus redundant.

It's not my intention to get into a slanging match with you at any rate so I will simply agree to disagree.
Jinga - Raid Leader of <Retribution>

16 man - World 5th clear of EC Hard Mode. World ranked 6th overall.
Seeking exceptional applicants, apply now at retribution-guild.net

silverprovidence's Avatar


silverprovidence
02.19.2012 , 10:38 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by jingadingdangdo View Post
The three difficulty modes inherently represent the choice that can be made to play on a harder difficulty for those who enjoy it. I was very clear in my post that I think normal mode has been tuned correctly but that hard and nightmare mode content have been both inadequately tuned and inadequately incentivized.

The one thing I do agree with you on is that the gear difference between the tiers does not need to be very big although for me this is more to prevent stat inflation than anything else.
Basically this. The point of difficulties with inevitably mean some people wont be able to do the higher ones. Otherwise... whats the logic in having them at all? People were really going for difficulties before 'now everyone can be happy and the hardcore raiders can shut up!' now these same people go on about elitists all the same but effectively laying claim to the whole game. Kind of proves that the people who raged about it before dont have a logical point where they stop, they are so blinded by what they percieve as 'raiding elitists' that all they want to do is complain. Sad really.
'Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feeling for the strength of their argument. The heated mind resents the chill touch and relentless scrutiny of logic' - William Ewart Gladstone.

Rabix's Avatar


Rabix
02.19.2012 , 10:52 AM | #17
they really need to make nightmare mode 10x harder than what it is now and drop tons of loot, social gear, mounts, vanity items, titles, pets, and various other things

make it what it should be, a prestige thing for only the hardcore-est of hardcore

eNcFireWraith's Avatar


eNcFireWraith
02.19.2012 , 10:57 AM | #18
I'm just hoping the second tier of content is harder comparatively (i.e. it isn't cleared in the first night). It seems to be the trend in most MMOs.
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matmert's Avatar


matmert
02.19.2012 , 10:57 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by silverprovidence View Post
Basically this. The point of difficulties with inevitably mean some people wont be able to do the higher ones. Otherwise... whats the logic in having them at all? People were really going for difficulties before 'now everyone can be happy and the hardcore raiders can shut up!' now these same people go on about elitists all the same but effectively laying claim to the whole game. Kind of proves that the people who raged about it before dont have a logical point where they stop, they are so blinded by what they percieve as 'raiding elitists' that all they want to do is complain. Sad really.
so actually i see your a pvp player right ?

( now these same people go on about elitists all the same but effectively laying claim to the whole game )

if you didint please go on some flashpoints not even operation just 2 or 3 simple flashpoint and watch the tanking system and crowd control system and you will see oh no not see you will feel that there is something missing something wrong is not how its supposed to be but if you tell me swtor is not pve game at first place its designed for pvp game then they add some contents and they didint do it properly ok its no problem but in whole pve system there is too many errors not bugs errors in mechanisim and also this problem cant be solved that easy thats why we need to wait maybe after 3 or 4 or 5 updates later this will gone start

if your a pvp player can you tell me the game is balanced and pvp is fixed ?

silverprovidence's Avatar


silverprovidence
02.19.2012 , 10:59 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by matmert View Post
if your a pvp player can you tell me the game is balanced and pvp is fixed ?
I'm not a pvp player . As such considering your whole refutation was based on my being an 'ignorant pvp player who hasnt stepped into pve content' pretty much just invalidates your entire counterargument.

Though I do find pvp more enjoyable in TOR than most other MMOs...
'Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feeling for the strength of their argument. The heated mind resents the chill touch and relentless scrutiny of logic' - William Ewart Gladstone.