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Jedi Shadow, Sith Assassin needs a big nerf soon.

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Jedi Shadow, Sith Assassin needs a big nerf soon.

TheOpf's Avatar


TheOpf
04.04.2012 , 11:01 AM | #271
So yesterday, I got wtfpwned by slingers over and over again. 2 of them killed me so fast I couldn't get to them before I died. I am Pyro PT, and so Snipers need a nerf. Slingers and snipers need more nerfs, I mean they have too many stuns and cc's and they kill me too fast.


I should be able to own everything. [/sarcasm ended]


If you can't kill a shadow tank, than you are playing poorly. They are a little tough to kill at times, but they do jack in terms of dps comparable to other classes. I can burn one down as long as he doesn't have that craptastic pocket healer. His heals makeup for the fact that his defensive cooldown outside of Force shroud sucks.

Why is a Jugg worried about the fact that he can slow you down? You realize you want to be on him, and you can jump to him. You do realize that the reason the Darkness/Kinetic tanks usually lead in damage is because their ward is an AOE. They don't hit hard, they just don't die with a decent healer on them. Then again, neither should any jugg. I don't know how many times, I have ran into a Knight/Sage team, and been steamrolled without taking more than half the health off the Sage.

TLDR: I get steamrolled by Snipers so they need another massive nerf. I can eat Sins for lunch so they are underpowered. If you get steamrolled by a Sin/Shadow, it most likely wasn't a tank spec.
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Paelo's Avatar


Paelo
05.10.2012 , 06:10 AM | #272
Quote: Originally Posted by bahugboto View Post
Kinetic ward spammable every 12 sec with 8 wards unlikely to be struck off in normal pvp situations. one of the highest force mitigation of any class. 3 additional proc defensive abilities including a permanent heal ability.

Not only that, their spamming of telekinetic throws/Lightnings have the ability to heal themselves, and slowing down their foes, adding to insane survivability along with massive dps and with Harnessed shadow up, it cannot be interrupted(another overpowered feature to a completely overpowered ability). They can stealth when needed, and can sprint when needed and kite when needed adding to survivability and an element of surprise. Jedi Shadows seems to be totally imbalanced, especially in PVP and I invite anyone of you who denies this to offer up a good counter to my arguments. Anyone who agrees please chime in as well. Jedi Shadow has too many useful utilities for PVP including with PULL, they have just about everything to counter everything on top of being the best pure tank in the game and second best self healer after healer classes, at least where PVP is concerned. Something seems to be horribly off with this picture.

A Jedi Shadow being able to out-tank, outrun, out stealth, out dps, out kite and able to out CCs and out self heals, on an above average level in the game. There's just seem to be no buffs that could bring any classes on par with a Shadow specced for PVP without breaking the game mechanics so the only option out it seems is to nerf Shadows -

A class that will be able to consistently get 300K+ dmg, and 100K+ healing in warzone matches along with being able to sprint stealth, pull, and tank like a madman, and score 55-0 in kills ratio very often, something is very very wrong with the balance here- guys - discuss with civility, any blatant fanboyism post or trolling, or off topic post will be reported.

For more reference of how overpowered a Shadow/Assassin could be in PVP, please visit this thread:
http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=336999
Good post, and very valid points.

It never ceases to amaze me how much flak marras and sents are taking lately when tank spec shadows/sins have been in need of a nerf for months.

What is even more mind blowing is how the devs didn't stop to think about the pvp balance issues that would come from giving a tank spec, good dps, self healing, stealth, good cc and cc counters, and the ability to strip negative effects + make themselves immune to force and tech skills every 45 seconds.

Thing is though, to avoid destroying the tank spec for Sins/Shadows, it's going to have to be more a case of providing some other buffs to other classes to bring them up to speed.

One thing that should be done imo is to give ALL the tank specs, be they Jugger/Guard, Vangaurd / PT the 50% self heal chance from attacks. Either that or simply remove it from the tank stance for Shadows/Sins, because having that only apply to Sins and Shadows is just plain stupid. The other main issue that will need to be dealt with is the high dps they put out, but again an issue that will need to be handled the right way to avoid screwing the class.
I'm not racist, I hate everyone equally

Technohic's Avatar


Technohic
05.10.2012 , 06:47 AM | #273
Quote: Originally Posted by Paelo View Post
Good post, and very valid points.

It never ceases to amaze me how much flak marras and sents are taking lately when tank spec shadows/sins have been in need of a nerf for months.

What is even more mind blowing is how the devs didn't stop to think about the pvp balance issues that would come from giving a tank spec, good dps, self healing, stealth, good cc and cc counters, and the ability to strip negative effects + make themselves immune to force and tech skills every 45 seconds.

Thing is though, to avoid destroying the tank spec for Sins/Shadows, it's going to have to be more a case of providing some other buffs to other classes to bring them up to speed.

One thing that should be done imo is to give ALL the tank specs, be they Jugger/Guard, Vangaurd / PT the 50% self heal chance from attacks. Either that or simply remove it from the tank stance for Shadows/Sins, because having that only apply to Sins and Shadows is just plain stupid. The other main issue that will need to be dealt with is the high dps they put out, but again an issue that will need to be handled the right way to avoid screwing the class.
This has to be the worse solution I have heard yet. The other tanks are tanking fine, IMO. It would be overkill and would then also start to infringe on the damage output of damage classes.

If anything needs to be done, it has to be something to reduce the damage output of tank sins. They are in line as far as actual tanking IMO.

DragonianJedi's Avatar


DragonianJedi
05.10.2012 , 12:25 PM | #274
In my opinion there are only one real issue with Shadow/Assassin Tanks in PvP that can be remotely valid.

Shadows/Assassins that people are complaining about are usually those in dps gear but are in the tank spec. The problem here is somewhat tied into the fact that they have nearly as much damage mitigation as a tank geared shadow/assassin would (Again, because their main mitigation is through self healing) but can now do decent enough damage to actually be a threat.

That's how a non shadow/assassin may see it. As a shadow player myself (since beta and not FOTM thanks) the real problem is that defense stats simply are not viable enough in the eyes of most players, so they naturally change their gear priority to something they feel is more effective. (So few player abilities are affected by defensive stats that unless you are facing a select few specs in this game, you are really wasting stats on your gear.)

Complaining about Kinetic/Dark ward makes me tilt my head because it only affects attacks that can be shielded. Taking it away would pretty much ruin their ability to tank in most PvE situations where the ability does make a considerable difference. (Most attacks in PvP are not shieldable...not the case in PvE) The ability also is a severe weakness when it comes to PvE tanking against multiple opponents. (Those charges drop FAST and that is when things really hurt.)

Singling them out because their class ability to mitigate damage through self healing does not solve anything. It is pretty much the only valid damage mitigation in the PvP scene. >_<

Fixing how those defensive stats interact with PLAYER damage AND finding a way to keep tank spec'd shadows/assassins from using dps mods/gear is the way to fix the problem. (I have not seen a real solution to this yet, but I think about it every now and then.) In my opinion, "fixing" the problem by changing the class breaks the other half of the game (which the OP largely ignored in his post) would be the wrong way to do things.

In my opinion it would be wiser to focus on the real problem so that we may well find the real solution.

Just some thoughts, forgive the rambling in there please.

(For the record, I am PvE focused but do dabble in PvP when friends are wanting to play a few matches.)
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Paelo's Avatar


Paelo
05.10.2012 , 12:32 PM | #275
Quote: Originally Posted by Technohic View Post
This has to be the worse solution I have heard yet. The other tanks are tanking fine, IMO. It would be overkill and would then also start to infringe on the damage output of damage classes.

If anything needs to be done, it has to be something to reduce the damage output of tank sins. They are in line as far as actual tanking IMO.
No more overkill than letting Tank sins/shadows keep the 50% self heal proc on top of the ones that come from skill tree point sinks. It's not needed for them, so it should either be removed ot given to all tanks, as well as doing something about tank spec sin/shadow high dps.
I'm not racist, I hate everyone equally

Technohic's Avatar


Technohic
05.10.2012 , 01:11 PM | #276
Quote: Originally Posted by Paelo View Post
No more overkill than letting Tank sins/shadows keep the 50% self heal proc on top of the ones that come from skill tree point sinks. It's not needed for them, so it should either be removed ot given to all tanks, as well as doing something about tank spec sin/shadow high dps.
It is mitigation that helps them get from light armor (which they wear) level mitigation up to about equivalent to of heavy armor (which the other tanks wear). They do not mitigate over all any more than the other tanks, it is just a different way and apples to oranges.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
05.10.2012 , 01:32 PM | #277
Kinetic Ward is a red herring in PvP. Most attacks ignore shield, and most kinetic shadows run with a focus rather than a shield generator for stats. As for the rest of it...

Kinetic shadows have a fairly easy strategy by which they can be countered. When you see their rock come out of the ground for project, hit your force defensive cooldown (or better yet, pop stealth). When you see them start channeling lightning, stun, knockback or LoS. Any one of these are extremely effective in neutering both their highest damage attack as well as their biggest self-heal. Save your melee cooldown until you're below 30% HP and they start spamming Spinning Strike. If you're a ranged class, try to keep them at distance (as best you can) to avoid giving them Double Strike procs. When you see them pop Resilience, kite them around and save all your tech/force cooldowns for 6 seconds until it drops off. If you see them pop deflection, spam your tech/force attacks and bypass any white damage in your rotation.

All of this requires a certain amount of awareness and a knowledge of visual effects, but it is *all* very achievable. Shadows aren't over-powered, they're just difficult to counter. If it makes you feel better, they're even more difficult to play well. Most shadows are going to fail hard somewhere along the line in the above, which gives you a lot more breathing room.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank)

tynt's Avatar


tynt
05.10.2012 , 02:12 PM | #278
lol i never thought i'd see someone complain about shield in pvp.

I've seen and heard it all.

TL-DR : Nothing to see here folks, somoene else died in a pvp zone

NoTomorrow's Avatar


NoTomorrow
05.10.2012 , 10:43 PM | #279
I dont like that they can pop up at the same time Deflection against white melee ranged attacks and force shroud against yell type damage (tech/force).

Waaaaay too good stuff for a single class.

Paelo's Avatar


Paelo
05.10.2012 , 11:04 PM | #280
Quote: Originally Posted by Technohic View Post
It is mitigation that helps them get from light armor (which they wear) level mitigation up to about equivalent to of heavy armor (which the other tanks wear). They do not mitigate over all any more than the other tanks, it is just a different way and apples to oranges.
Right and thankyou for answering a question that wasn't asked, which has nothing to do with the fact that they don't need to have the 50% heal proc from attacks whilst in tank stance. Either all tanks should have that, or none. And then there's still the matter of their high dps.
I'm not racist, I hate everyone equally