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SWToR Arena Possibilities

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
SWToR Arena Possibilities

Arkerus's Avatar


Arkerus
06.07.2012 , 09:04 AM | #21
I totally understand the request for Arenas...

But even the WoW devs admitted they should have never had concentrated on them. Arenas place WAY too much emphasis on class synergy and balance. It becomes a complicated nightmare of balancing when the synergy between two or three classes is huge but individually the classes are weak.

People start calling for nerfs and buffs to balance arena size teams and its a never ending disaster of changes. One class is way too powerful and another is very weak.

That problem is removed in WZs because of the team and random factors that come into play. A class that is very poor on an individual level may become great in a team environment. Classes that excel 1v1 may not be that great to have on a WZ team because of their single target purpose.


Arenas are way too complicated to balance and only further complicate the game. There will never be perfect balance and we need to accept the fact that arenas only make it worse.
Hooning in the rex : http://youtu.be/xtXUM6yPMCY

Dmasterr's Avatar


Dmasterr
06.07.2012 , 09:10 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Arkerus View Post
I totally understand the request for Arenas...

But even the WoW devs admitted they should have never had concentrated on them. Arenas place WAY too much emphasis on class synergy and balance. It becomes a complicated nightmare of balancing when the synergy between two or three classes is huge but individually the classes are weak.

People start calling for nerfs and buffs to balance arena size teams and its a never ending disaster of changes. One class is way too powerful and another is very weak.

That problem is removed in WZs because of the team and random factors that come into play. A class that is very poor on an individual level may become great in a team environment. Classes that excel 1v1 may not be that great to have on a WZ team because of their single target purpose.


Arenas are way too complicated to balance and only further complicate the game. There will never be perfect balance and we need to accept the fact that arenas only make it worse.
Care to post a link to the press release u just mine quoted ?

Arkerus's Avatar


Arkerus
06.07.2012 , 09:15 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Dmasterr View Post
Care to post a link to the press release u just mine quoted ?
It was quite a while ago. The WoW devs went into how arenas placed a huge microscope on class balance and created situations and balance problems that only arose when 2v2 or 3v3 combat occurred. It was a never ending battle of fix this and then something else happens.

Edit: I found it.
So, whats next? Want to challenge me on something else? I'm not making this stuff up.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2009/11/13/bl...re-a-mistake/5


but that Arena has been a huge headache for Blizzard and players alike. He goes on to say that if he had the choice, he'd either go back to WoW's beginnings and change the fundamentals of class balance, or, barring that, would nix the decision to add Arenas during the development of the Burning Crusade expansion.
Hooning in the rex : http://youtu.be/xtXUM6yPMCY

Dmasterr's Avatar


Dmasterr
06.07.2012 , 09:49 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Arkerus View Post
It was quite a while ago. The WoW devs went into how arenas placed a huge microscope on class balance and created situations and balance problems that only arose when 2v2 or 3v3 combat occurred. It was a never ending battle of fix this and then something else happens.

Edit: I found it.
So, whats next? Want to challenge me on something else? I'm not making this stuff up.

http://wow.joystiq.com/2009/11/13/bl...re-a-mistake/5


but that Arena has been a huge headache for Blizzard and players alike. He goes on to say that if he had the choice, he'd either go back to WoW's beginnings and change the fundamentals of class balance, or, barring that, would nix the decision to add Arenas during the development of the Burning Crusade expansion.
There we go. Arena as a system is good.

Their mistake was adding new abilities and stuff in TBC without regards to game balance, and ended up shooting themselves in the foot, with having to work extra to fix them.


Same thing Swtor started doing. Ie : Project vs shock. And now they have to fix it.

Why not try to avoid doing the same mistakes, and keep in mind pvp balance every time they add something new. So when Arena gets introduced, it will be great.

After all, all arena did was point out what pvp imbalances were and needed to be fixed. Without arena WoW would have been incredibly imbalanced.

Look at each expansion. They go through the same cycle... add abilities without regard to game balance and end up fixing them afterwards.

First 2 seasons of TBC and WOTLK were crap ragarding game balance and without Arena game balance would have stayed crap or continue to circle further down the drain.

Arena was a tool to help them balance PvP.

Why not keep in mind PvP game balance every time something new is added? so that u dont have to work twice at it, once to implement it and another to fix it.


TLDR: read it, u lazy bum.

EDIT: This would be a great time to add arena, since the game is so "young" and have singificantly fewers abilities to balance for PvP, then it will be much easier for pvp balance later, if every new thing that is added takes in consideration PvP balance.

DarkDruidSS's Avatar


DarkDruidSS
06.07.2012 , 09:57 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Dmasterr View Post
Care to post a link to the press release u just mine quoted ?
http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/...ds-Rob-Pardo.2

Specificially...

What are you most proud of over the last five years? What was the biggest mistake you think you made?

As for the biggest mistake? There's a lot of them that I think, were ... they just "fell out" of things. One example: I wish the servers were more stable when we launched, of course - there's a lot of that sort of thing. We have a lot of excuses for that - we didn't expect nearly the response - but we can't say it wasn't a mistake. If I was going to pick on a game design thing that I look back on and think was a mistake? We really never designed WoW to be a competitive e-sports game; it was something that we decided to start tackling because there was such a desire and demand to evolve it in that direction, to introduce competitive arenas. I'm not sure that that was the right thing to do with the game.

We didn't engineer the game and classes and balance around it, we just added it on, so it continues to be very difficult to balance. Is WoW a PvE cooperative game, or a competitive PvP game? There's constant pressure on the class balance team, there's pressure on the game itself, and a lot of times players who don't PvP don't understand why their classes are changing. I don't think we ever foresaw how much tuning and tweaking we'd have to do to balance it in that direction. Either I'd go back in time to before WoW ever shipped and change the rules to make the basic game more conductive for being an e-sport, or if not that, just say it doesn't make sense. Right now, WoW has a bit of a schizophrenic philosophy behind it, and we're trying to figure out how to guide it.
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Dmasterr's Avatar


Dmasterr
06.07.2012 , 10:01 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by DarkDruidSS View Post
http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/...ds-Rob-Pardo.2

Specificially...

What are you most proud of over the last five years? What was the biggest mistake you think you made?

As for the biggest mistake? There's a lot of them that I think, were ... they just "fell out" of things. One example: I wish the servers were more stable when we launched, of course - there's a lot of that sort of thing. We have a lot of excuses for that - we didn't expect nearly the response - but we can't say it wasn't a mistake. If I was going to pick on a game design thing that I look back on and think was a mistake? We really never designed WoW to be a competitive e-sports game; it was something that we decided to start tackling because there was such a desire and demand to evolve it in that direction, to introduce competitive arenas. I'm not sure that that was the right thing to do with the game.

We didn't engineer the game and classes and balance around it, we just added it on, so it continues to be very difficult to balance. Is WoW a PvE cooperative game, or a competitive PvP game? There's constant pressure on the class balance team, there's pressure on the game itself, and a lot of times players who don't PvP don't understand why their classes are changing. I don't think we ever foresaw how much tuning and tweaking we'd have to do to balance it in that direction. Either I'd go back in time to before WoW ever shipped and change the rules to make the basic game more conductive for being an e-sport, or if not that, just say it doesn't make sense. Right now, WoW has a bit of a schizophrenic philosophy behind it, and we're trying to figure out how to guide it.
Guess what, since the game is young, we dont have to go back in time to change the game and engineer it and classes with pvp balance in mind. We can do it right NOW.

Arena is great, Their mistake was failing to implement it, and designing a game without regard for PvP balance.

Is that what you want? to have a game where PvP balance is the last priority? Because that's where it ends up without engineering the game and class balance around PvP.

Izola's Avatar


Izola
06.07.2012 , 10:02 AM | #27
At the end of the day ARENAs require the most skill to master even though they are NEVER really balanced. So yes there will be a comp or 2 or 3 that leads most of the leader boards but that's life.

This is why you take a % of the top.

Hell I got Rogue Rogue to 2k in wraith when we had to run Muti.

It's fun!

DarkDruidSS's Avatar


DarkDruidSS
06.07.2012 , 10:05 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Dmasterr View Post
Guess what, since the game is young, we dont have to go back in time to change the game and engineer it and classes with pvp balance in mind. We can do it right NOW.

Arena is great, Their mistake was failing to implement it, and designing a game without regard for PvP balance.

Is that what you want? to have a game where PvP balance is the last priority? Because that's where it ends up without engineering the game and class balance around PvP.
No it is too late, because to get a game to be e-sport competitive it has to be designed that way from the ground up. If the game is released like SWTOR, WoW, Rift or any other PVE game with PvP tacked on then it's too late to make it competitive.

Fast forward to Guild Wars 2 which is designed from the ground up to be PvP and competitive and you have a shot at making a e-sport type game.

It's time people realized this isn't the PvP game they were looking for. PvP is fun in SWTOR, but it is not and never will be the main attraction. The main attraction will be the PvE and the story complete with voice overs. Does that make me like SWTOR less? Sorta, I mean I was lead to believe it was going to have a strong well designed PvP portion that was started when the game was in development... instead we got another WoW, EQ2, or Rift where PvP was tacked on.

But SWTOR is still fun and I can always play GW2 on the side.
Beatrush - 50 Assassin | Satellitebeam - 50 Sniper
Katastrophe - 41 Powertech | ěmnislash - 34 Marauder
Highwind - 29 Commando | ▀raver - 23 Sentinel
Finalheaven - 21 Sage | Bigbrawl - 14 Scoundrel

TheNotorius's Avatar


TheNotorius
06.07.2012 , 10:24 AM | #29
Arena can be "e-peen" ecc, only if the game make it so (like warcraft, which for many is a bad example)

Without specific gear, for example (maybe just some commendations like WZs), it will be just like warzones, nothing more, and people who like it can play it.

If someone don't like them, they simply won't. (Basically, they have to make them NOT required at all to gear up, but only as an option).
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Postalz's Avatar


Postalz
06.07.2012 , 10:50 AM | #30
No one said anything about esport, heck there wouldn't be any rewards that are unattainable via wz's. All we're asking for is small scale competitive group PvP.