Jump to content

Do you remember City of Heroes?


MsKaos

Recommended Posts

You should keep in mind that this is EA, not NCSoft - EA owns Ultima Online after all, one of the oldest MMO's out there, who's got several years on CoH, and they still keep it running - heck they even come out with expansions for it now and then.

What NCSoft did was an attrocity, they shut down a game that was still profitable and that was on the rise again since going F2P - something the devs themselves have confirmed.

So have a little faith, despite EA's many flaws, they are not NCSoft.

 

NCSoft is terribad. Look at the list of games they had shut down.

 

And NCSoft flat out lied about trying to sell CoX. When Atari was trying to sell off Cryptic, everyone knew about it months before PWE even came in the picture as a potential buyer. Paragon Studios employees didn't even know anything about NCSoft trying to sell it or anything and got blindsided by the shutdown news. And I know of at least one company that tried to buy CoX after the shutdown news hit and NCSoft basically just said, "No."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 100
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

NCSoft is terribad. Look at the list of games they had shut down.

 

And NCSoft flat out lied about trying to sell CoX. When Atari was trying to sell off Cryptic, everyone knew about it months before PWE even came in the picture as a potential buyer. Paragon Studios employees didn't even know anything about NCSoft trying to sell it or anything and got blindsided by the shutdown news. And I know of at least one company that tried to buy CoX after the shutdown news hit and NCSoft basically just said, "No."

 

Paragon Studios also tried to buy themselves free from NCSoft when the news came that they were planning on shutting it down.

Gamasutra just did an article about it last month, where they talked to some of Paragon's devs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Paragon Studios also tried to buy themselves free from NCSoft when the news came that they were planning on shutting it down.

Gamasutra just did an article about it last month, where they talked to some of Paragon's devs.

 

But NCsoft said no. They'd rather sit on a dead franchise than let the game continue on. Did you know they have complete copyright of all the heroes and villains? Paragon can't even make a sequel featuring their characters and call it something else. Who knows, maybe NCsoft copyright the player made heroes and villains! We never read the ToS!

 

:eek:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

NCSoft is terribad. Look at the list of games they had shut down.

 

And NCSoft flat out lied about trying to sell CoX. When Atari was trying to sell off Cryptic, everyone knew about it months before PWE even came in the picture as a potential buyer. Paragon Studios employees didn't even know anything about NCSoft trying to sell it or anything and got blindsided by the shutdown news. And I know of at least one company that tried to buy CoX after the shutdown news hit and NCSoft basically just said, "No."

 

Paragon Studios also tried to buy themselves free from NCSoft when the news came that they were planning on shutting it down.

Gamasutra just did an article about it last month, where they talked to some of Paragon's devs.

 

But NCsoft said no. They'd rather sit on a dead franchise than let the game continue on. Did you know they have complete copyright of all the heroes and villains? Paragon can't even make a sequel featuring their characters and call it something else. Who knows, maybe NCsoft copyright the player made heroes and villains! We never read the ToS!

 

:eek:

 

Out of curiosity.. has anyone here besides me ever done business negotiatons with a Korean company?

 

The sequence of events surrounding the shut down of CoH is very typical and in fact predicable once Paragon decided to take an aggressive approach with company management in Korea. Paragon created a face issue for NCsoft and NCsoft dealt with it in a predictable way (from a Korean business standpoint).

 

The reason the MMO was not sold off to a 3rd party, not sold to Paragon, and the copyrights are frozen is NCsoft decided to teach Paragon management (and the studios in general) a lesson. The game was still profitable as far as I can tell... but not enough to keep it open under the circumstances precipitated.

 

The playerbase are the ones that suffered because of this... but it's actualy Paragons fault. I blame Paragon for the mishandling of all of this. There is a right way and a wrong way to negotiate business with Korean companies. NCsoft management was just doing/being what is normal in Korean business. Western studios need to learn from this debacle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Out of curiosity.. has anyone here besides me ever done business negotiatons with a Korean company?

 

The sequence of events surrounding the shut down of CoH is very typical and in fact predicable once Paragon decided to take an aggressive approach with company management in Korea. Paragon created a face issue for NCsoft and NCsoft dealt with it in a predictable way (from a Korean business standpoint).

 

The reason the MMO was not sold off to a 3rd party, not sold to Paragon, and the copyrights are frozen is NCsoft decided to teach Paragon management (and the studios in general) a lesson. The game was still profitable as far as I can tell... but not enough to keep it open under the circumstances precipitated.

 

The playerbase are the ones that suffered because of this... but it's actualy Paragons fault. I blame Paragon for the mishandling of all of this. There is a right way and a wrong way to negotiate business with Korean companies. NCsoft management was just doing/being what is normal in Korean business. Western studios need to learn from this debacle.

 

Better idea: Let's just not give Korea video games.

 

They got the Gentleman going on over there. They can entertain themselves.

 

:D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem is that trinity is very effective time proven model ever since tabletop RPGs... You need a guy who can take damage (either through bulky armor, sheer vitality, or some magic), guy who keeps the party alive (alchemist, divine caster, etc) and guys who just unleash mayhem on enemies.

 

All other games that tried to go another way ended up with some amorphous blob of abilities that could do everything, but not really well, unless you took time to specifically focus on them (and thus bringing you to the trinity I outlined in first paragraph again).

 

As for "needing" one part of trinity, plenty missions (except the hard ones, which could fall under the "difficult" where they were needed in CoH) can be done without someone specialized as Tank or Healer, it just makes it a bit more difficult...

 

There's nothing wrong with designing a game around the trinity.

 

Designing a solo game around the trinity though, now that makes no sense at all.

 

What we have in TOR is 95% solo game. Every class in the game is generic enough to be able to easily solo the majority of PvE content up to 50. They can all DPS and tank well enough to breeze through most of it, and the times they can't... presto! They hand you an uber pet called a companion that does everything you can not.

 

For the actual group content (pre-50), it has been my experience in TOR that no class is required when the 4 players in the group are "MMO veterans". A healer is always nice to have and any healer played by any MMO veteran is all you ever need to beat any group content. Tanks are a bonus but not needed.

 

There are a handful of Heroics, around 1 per planet, that actually play almost like an actual MMO. For those few missions, having a tank and healer make then much less deadly, but they are few and far between. The real challenge in those particular missions isn't that they are terribly hard, it's that they are so out of character to the rest of the game that they catch people by surprise.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Out of curiosity.. has anyone here besides me ever done business negotiatons with a Korean company?

 

The sequence of events surrounding the shut down of CoH is very typical and in fact predicable once Paragon decided to take an aggressive approach with company management in Korea. Paragon created a face issue for NCsoft and NCsoft dealt with it in a predictable way (from a Korean business standpoint).

 

The reason the MMO was not sold off to a 3rd party, not sold to Paragon, and the copyrights are frozen is NCsoft decided to teach Paragon management (and the studios in general) a lesson. The game was still profitable as far as I can tell... but not enough to keep it open under the circumstances precipitated.

 

The playerbase are the ones that suffered because of this... but it's actualy Paragons fault. I blame Paragon for the mishandling of all of this. There is a right way and a wrong way to negotiate business with Korean companies. NCsoft management was just doing/being what is normal in Korean business. Western studios need to learn from this debacle.

 

That still stands what I said. Nothing you put disputes that. They LIED about trying to sell it off. All you did was say something unrelated to the fact they NEVER tried to sell it off to anyone else like they tried to say after the playerbase was up in arms towards them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's nothing wrong with designing a game around the trinity.

 

Designing a solo game around the trinity though, now that makes no sense at all.

 

What we have in TOR is 95% solo game. Every class in the game is generic enough to be able to easily solo the majority of PvE content up to 50. They can all DPS and tank well enough to breeze through most of it, and the times they can't... presto! They hand you an uber pet called a companion that does everything you can not.

 

For the actual group content (pre-50), it has been my experience in TOR that no class is required when the 4 players in the group are "MMO veterans". A healer is always nice to have and any healer played by any MMO veteran is all you ever need to beat any group content. Tanks are a bonus but not needed.

 

There are a handful of Heroics, around 1 per planet, that actually play almost like an actual MMO. For those few missions, having a tank and healer make then much less deadly, but they are few and far between. The real challenge in those particular missions isn't that they are terribly hard, it's that they are so out of character to the rest of the game that they catch people by surprise.

 

You know I always get a chuckle when in BH, I see people broadcast for a specific class. Easiest run ever on the H4 was when we had 4 DPS'ers plow through it like a hot lightsaber through butter. As Vader would say, "All too easy." And that was before the level cap raise. Now, that will be laughable to run.

 

And did a lot of H4's with just one other player and comps without deaths.

Edited by Jacen_Starsolo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

CoH was my first MMO. Before CoH my attitude towards subscription games was why should I have to pay a monthly fee for a computer game I've already paid money on to buy. Then one day I saw my friends playing in the CoH beta test and was intrigued and asked if I could give it a try. Once I did that I was hooked and, on May 1st 2004, I started on the adventure of being a superhero in Paragon City. I played off and on till the game was prematurely shut down last year. When CoV hit I fell in love immediately with the Mastermind class and spent many, many hours tromping around the Rogue Islands (and later in Paragon City when switching sides became possible) with Unit 342, my Robots/Force Field MM, melting face with the combined firepower of my six robots. When NCSuck decided to shut down the game it pissed me off with the way they went about the shut down, closing Paragon Studios without warning and absolutely no communications to a very loyal player base on the reasoning behind the shut down. I, along with a majority of the player base of CoH, have boycotted any titles with the NCSuck name on them because of this. Edited by UndyingImhotep
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seems now all the new patches are not really patches as in fixes to the game. But, more of addons to the Cartel Market.

Actually, the last patch on April 24th had a ton of bug fixes....but I guess you don't read the patch notes. They typically don't release a lot of patches heavy on bug fixes the week or two before an update though....presumably they are busy finalizing the update and the put some bug fixes in with the update.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That still stands what I said. Nothing you put disputes that. They LIED about trying to sell it off. All you did was say something unrelated to the fact they NEVER tried to sell it off to anyone else like they tried to say after the playerbase was up in arms towards them.

 

What I did was put the blame where it properly rests.. with the arrogant management team at Paragon. Paragon management killed the game by creating a face issue with home office in Korea. They did it deliberately IMO, to make a power play on ownership and control over the MMO. They lost, and were made an example of.

 

I feel sorry for the players and for Paragon employees for how it was handled. NCsoft management acted in a predictable manner in the face of Paragon Managements behaviors. It's called business.. Korean style. Other studios better learn it, or be careful never to fall under the umbrella of a Korean Company. And MMO players need to be aware as well before they invest time in an MMO from a studio that is under the control of NCsoft (such as the upcoming Wildstar).

Edited by Andryah
Link to comment
Share on other sites

the CoH dev team was, quite simply, the best in the business.

 

Great communication, everyone of them played the game they made, good/fun people, amazing game for its time.

 

I remember CoH very fondly. They did quite a bit right that most MMOs do wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, I remember CoX. I played from about a month after launch of CoH until they started trying to force me to log on through the NCSoft launcher, when I finally quit altogether.

 

I agree, SWTOR seems to be going a similar route and I think a month or two of bad Cartel Market sales would prompt EA to end it all. Let's just hope the gambling addicts and credit farmers keep buying those packs.

 

I play on Shadowlands. If you would like to make a donation to my cause feel free to Mail it to Blackavaar.

 

Good luck in your future gaming. Farewell.

 

:cool:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

with the arrogant management team at Paragon. Paragon management killed the game by creating a face issue with home office in Korea. They did it deliberately IMO,

 

opinion based on a sample size of 0.

Edited by maxetius
Link to comment
Share on other sites

CoX wasn’t my first MMO, but it is my second favourite. It had a decent game for everyone. Almost unlimited RP, fun raids, a healthy PvP system (sure, it was wonky at times, but what game has perfectly balanced PvP?). I’d say it was one of the greatest MMOs of all time.

You have to keep something in mind, though. It didn’t start off that way.

CoX was originally made by Cryptic. A company that’s famous for coming up with amazing ideas with limitless potential, and making them as mediocre as possible. Then Paragon showed up, bought the game from Cryptic, and took CoX to a whole new level of awesome.

It was timing, it was the pre-WoW MMO culture, and it was an awesome group of rock star DEVs rescuing a game from mediocrity. It was a perfect combination of events that lead to a true hall of fame MMO that met a fate that it did NOT deserve, and NC Soft will always be haunted for their poor handling.

It was a sandbox. You could go anywhere, do anything, and make your character look however you wanted, with no effect on stats whatsoever. But CoX came out before WoW hit the market, and spawned an endless series of them park clones, marketed towards the lowest common denominator.

Here’s the thing, though. These changes didn’t happen overnight. It was one patch after another, where things slowly and gradually got better.

Now, I don’t agree with the way TOR is handling this game. They’re FAR too reliant on the cartel market. I think BioWare has an attention span problem. They come out with a new game feature, and then EVERYTHING they come out with afterwards is devoted to that feature, and everything else gets forgotten.

For example… other than personal starship transports…which was long overdue…what new exciting additions have there been to the Legacy system lately? Not good enough? When’s the last time you saw something new on a Light/Dark side vendor? Do they even still have those?

No, BioWare isn’t doing everything right. They still make bad decisions, and overlook simple ideas that would make a huge difference, and instead focus on shiny new toys. But they are going in the right direction.

The game has improved a great deal since it was first released. Adaptive armour, Warzone changes, new operations and flashpoints…they’re moving in the right direction.

These DEVs aren’t stupid. They know we don’t like dailies. They know we don’t like the cartel market. Heck, the DEVs don’t even like it. They’ve admitted that EA forced them into the F2P model before they were ready!

They are trying, though, and they’re making solid progress. As long as they keep trying, and keep making progress, I’ll keep subbing.

I like it here. I have a blaster, a space ship, and Blizz! I don’t want to play another generic, pre-packaged, stupid elf game, so my options are limited. Fortunately, this one is getting a lot better.

In short…I’m optimistic.

This game will never be another CoX, or a pre-NGE SWG, but it’s still pretty good. That’s all I really ask.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CoX wasn’t my first MMO, but it is my second favourite. It had a decent game for everyone. Almost unlimited RP, fun raids, a healthy PvP system (sure, it was wonky at times, but what game has perfectly balanced PvP?). I’d say it was one of the greatest MMOs of all time.

You have to keep something in mind, though. It didn’t start off that way.

CoX was originally made by Cryptic. A company that’s famous for coming up with amazing ideas with limitless potential, and making them as mediocre as possible. Then Paragon showed up, bought the game from Cryptic, and took CoX to a whole new level of awesome. /snip

 

Okay, I gotta stop you right there. Paragon did not "show up" and "buy the game" from Cryptic.

 

Cryptic wanted to move on to new projects, but NCSoft was trying to stifle them. So they sold CoH to NCSoft and left a skeleton crew of some of the primary developers from Cryptic, including Matt Miller (aka. Positron) who took over as Lead Developer. They then hired new staff and got some transfers from other former NCSoft developers to fill out their crew. They didn't even rename themselves Paragon Studios for a good six months to a year after all of these changes took place.

 

Cryptic built great games with amazing potential. The problems came from the cheapskate publishers they had to work with. Of course, now Cryptic is no longer Cryptic. They were bought out by Atari (formerly just a publisher) who then sold them to Perfect World and they have lost all of their original developers in the process.

 

:cool:

Edited by Blackavaar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, I gotta stop you right there. ...:cool:

 

Ok, I stand corrected. I can admit when I'm wrong, and I was. The "changing of the guarde" wasn't as rosey as I remember. The point stands, though.

 

The new team saw greater potential in the game, and made those changes, one step at a time. That's what this DEV team is doing...just not as well. They're gradually moving in The right direction, though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Out of curiosity.. has anyone here besides me ever done business negotiatons with a Korean company?

 

The sequence of events surrounding the shut down of CoH is very typical and in fact predicable once Paragon decided to take an aggressive approach with company management in Korea. Paragon created a face issue for NCsoft and NCsoft dealt with it in a predictable way (from a Korean business standpoint).

 

The reason the MMO was not sold off to a 3rd party, not sold to Paragon, and the copyrights are frozen is NCsoft decided to teach Paragon management (and the studios in general) a lesson. The game was still profitable as far as I can tell... but not enough to keep it open under the circumstances precipitated.

 

The playerbase are the ones that suffered because of this... but it's actualy Paragons fault. I blame Paragon for the mishandling of all of this. There is a right way and a wrong way to negotiate business with Korean companies. NCsoft management was just doing/being what is normal in Korean business. Western studios need to learn from this debacle.

 

Out of curiousity, what exactly is this "face issue" you refer and that I've never heard any other reference to despite paying close attention to any and all news related to the shutdown. Without some kind of reference, citation, or other documentation or at bare minimum further explanation, I'll just safely assume you're talking out of your @#$. Regardless, this being a free country, feel free to blame whoever you want, but your argument, even if completely true, will not change my opinion about NCSoft or where I feel the blame lies in this matter. Why? Simple.

 

I'm american.

 

When I do business with a company offering it's product or service in MY country, under MY laws, and I'm giving them MY money (dollars btw, not whatever the currrency is in Idon'tgiveacrapwhattheyspendthereland), I will feel free to judge their behavoir as a business based upon the norms and culture of MY homeland, not theirs. Why? They're doing business with me. Here. NOT THERE. So there doesn't matter as far as I'm concerned. Couldn't give a flying flip about it. And by the standards and customs of where I come from, what they did was the height of ******tery and eff u customer orientation. WHEN A KOREAN BUSINESS WANTS TO DO BUSINESS IN AMERICA, THEY NEED TO LEARN HOW TO DEAL WITH CUSTOMERS AND CONDUCT BUSINESS ACCORDING TO AMERICAN CUSTOMS, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.

 

As far as I'm concerned, Paragon Studios has nothing to do with this. Nothing whatsoever. I don't care what kind of "face issue" you claim they created for NCSoft, in the US WHERE THEY WERE DOING BUSINESS, their response amounted to a three year old throwing a temper tantrum over a perceived insult, taking their ball and going home. That kind of behavior as a business earns you a quick trip to my "burn in hell while waiting all eternity for another dime of my money or even a nice word about your company" category. Period. No excuses. No blaming other parties. Do not pass go, have an extra kick in the crotch from me.

 

As always YMMV. I just wanted to set the record straight as to who is really at fault here and why. Sorry if I pissed all over your opinion, but on this we definately disagree.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

. Words words words

I'm american.

 

Words words words

 

As jingoistic as this was, I actually have to agree. I'm not American, I'm Irish. There have been a few American companies that have come to Ireland that tried to do things the American way, that failed abysmally. Why? Because they didn't adapt. Other companies have used our labour system, and dealt with us straight, rather than useig marketing data fed PR that's so popular in the US, and faired much better.

 

If you're going to compete in a foreign market, for foreign money, you're going to have to adapt.

 

NC Soft made their call. That was their right. Regardless of why they did it, they'll have to face the reprecussions of their decisions, and I don't think "that's how we role in Southie K" is going to cut it.

Edited by La_Trix
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As jingoistic as this was, I actually have to agree. I'm not American, I'm Irish. There have been a few American companies that have come to Ireland that tried to do things the American way, that failed abysmally. Why? Because they didn't adapt. Other companies have used our labour system, and dealt with us straight, rather than useig marketing data fed PR that's so popular in the US, and faired much better.

 

If you're going to compete in a foreign market, for foreign money, you're going to have to adapt.

 

NC Soft made their call. That was their right. Regardless of why they did it, they'll have to face the reprecussions of their decisions, and I don't think "that's how we role in Southie K" is going to cut it.

 

Ahem. Just to quibble on a minor point, what I said is not and should not reasonably be interpreted as jingoism because it neither sets my country apart as exceptional in any way, nor is a beligerent foreign policy. The point is exactly the same if one substitutes any country on earth save Korea for the US in my post (say for instance Ireland). I think you got the overall thrust of my point, I'd just rather not be accused of macho flag waving when that's not what I'm doing.

 

Also, irish accents are hawt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As always YMMV. I just wanted to set the record straight as to who is really at fault here and why. Sorry if I pissed all over your opinion, but on this we definately disagree.

 

"Face" in simplest terms in Asian culture is to "embarass" or to "defy in public". If you think it is trivial in Asian culture, there is little point in continuing to discuss the topic with you. If you think because you are an American that it does not matter.. you are mistaken. NCsoft owned Paragon and everything Paragon created. Paragon forgot this and wanted autonomy. The parent company said no. The child (Paragon) QQed and demanded... and was punished for misbehaving.

 

In this case, Paragon management made demands upon NCsoft management, and they thought because they were the studio.. and that the MMO was profitable, that NCsoft would have to go along with said demands. NCsoft management said no... Paragon pressed on after being told no. NCsoft decided to end the argument created by Paragon by shutting dowin the studio and the game. NOT just the game, they nuked the entire operation. The fact that NCsoft would shutter a profit making MMO exemplifies just how nasty the conflict between parties would have been behind close doors in the conference room.

 

The giant elephant in that conference room that none of us have visibility into is that the conflict points revolved around either funding, or a breech of promise. I know this only because I have been part of negotiations teams dealing with Korean companies and when there is deal breaking confrontation with Korean companies, it's over a breach of promise (ie: breaking a commitment) or money (either funding agreements, or royalties, or license or some other material form of funds). Since in this case it was Parent company and child studio (hierarchy, not behavior), based on the way NCsoft abruptly shut down the studio and the MMO... Paragon either breeched it's commitment or word, or tried to play games with money in some fashion. And once you do that.. you are toast. The Korean company will destroy you in any way they can. Which is exactly what happened here.... NCsoft destroyed a profitable studio and profitable MMO. So sorry pal, but for a Korean company to flush money down the toilet, Paragon did one or more fatal behaviors that embarassed the management team at NCsoft. In Asian culture, there are consequences in business for that, and can be severe.

 

You can disagree with me all you want.. but it is clear from your comments that you have absolutely no clue how business is conducted inside (and with) Asian companies. Claiming it is untrue because you are American is just silly. I too am an American.. but I know and understand a number of other national cultures that we share the planet with and being American means exacty squat with an Asian company in a business negotiation. You are either a customer or a supplier that benefits them.. nothing more, nothing less. They do not respect American values for the most part.. in fact they consider us barbaric and undisciplined in most things.

Edited by Andryah
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Face" in simplest terms in Asian culture is to "embarass" or to "defy in public".

 

and stuff.

 

i dont know about asian culture, but!

 

 

i can tell you that what andryah said is damn true in african and middle eastern cultures when dealing with a business.

 

while being dishonor,shamed or etc in public isnt a big deal in america, i can ensure IT IS A VERY BIG DEAL on other places like nigeria, saudi arabia and etc.

 

honor and shame means alot to those ppl when conducting businesses, the way ncsoft handled their business with the korean was rather foolish and they paid the ultimate price.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i dont know about asian culture, but!

 

 

i can tell you that what andryah said is damn true in african and middle eastern cultures when dealing with a business.

 

while being dishonor,shamed or etc in public isnt a big deal in america, i can ensure IT IS A VERY BIG DEAL on other places like nigeria, saudi arabia and etc.

 

honor and shame means alot to those ppl when conducting businesses, the way ncsoft handled their business with the korean was rather foolish and they paid the ultimate price.

 

They committed seppuku?

 

:cool:

Link to comment
Share on other sites


×
×
  • Create New...