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R/E frustrations


Facime

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Is this mechanic broken again? Today I wanted to make some upgrades for a friends armorings. I went and farmed the mats allowing room for error and began to craft Resolve Armoring 13's in order to R/E to make her some blues of that level. No joking at all, Im at 26 made and R/E'd with still no schematic. I have never found it THIS hard to get a schematic before.

 

I tried to relog and make more but tbh, Im just too frustrated now to bother. I will try coming back to it later, but I wanted to ask is anyone else is experienceing this today, or if there is a known bug/workaround when its that obviously broken.

 

(Im a sub, so my chance roll is 20% and my odds are well below that right now, with still nothing)

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my record with re, was with an armouring that took 46 attempts. Every time you re something, its the same % the previous fails mean nothing. That said, you can succesfully re 4-5 or more in a row. Which i have also done.

 

I find that if you really need the re, you don't get it. If you dont care, it re's first time.

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BioWare really needs to address it. It's stupidly grindy(unless you get lucky - yea it happens) and not logical. Chance increase after each fail would be nice. You take the item apart, fail to learn new schematic BUT you learn more about the item thus you get higher chance to learn it next time. I gave up on schematic so many times. Would be nice to level in purple gear, but getting crafting items with 2 or 3 companions without max affection and fail for 10th or 20th time is not encouraging or fun. Edited by MelodicSixNine
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lol you guys obviously never did skillups in Everquest crafting. 100+ combines for 1 skill up was pretty common. oh and you had to click drag all of your materials into the craft box. some of the recipes had 9 items. ugh.

 

yeah REing sucks....but it could be much, much worse.

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the problem with REing is that every item you RE have a 80% chance of not giving a schematic (hence as the tooltip says only 20% of getting one). this chance is rerollec everytime you Re an item and even if you do a stack of items at once the chance is rerolled for each item in the stack individually.

yea the chances suck but we just have to live with it:(

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lol you guys obviously never did skillups in Everquest crafting. 100+ combines for 1 skill up was pretty common. oh and you had to click drag all of your materials into the craft box. some of the recipes had 9 items. ugh.

 

yeah REing sucks....but it could be much, much worse.

 

Of course it could be worse. It always can be worse, but how about we focus on making the RE much more interesting and fun mechanic rather than compare it to other awful grindan systems? For example each REing will boost your next chance by 15% - green items or 5% - blue items. I recently leveled up biochem and it took around 15 green stims to get blue schematic. Not very exciting.

Crafting atm in cases like armormech, synth and arti is useful only through leveling process(end game focus on making augment boxes... yay?) and in many cases you will level up faster than gathering mats and REing, making the purple item essentially worthless.

Edited by MelodicSixNine
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No it is not broken again. I had to RE two items yesterday (armoring and mod). One took three tries and te other about 20. Both were 20%. That is no different from day one.

 

The system itself has a built in frustration factor. There is little joy in a quick hit, since the result is part of a process and you move on to the next level of REing or crafting the results. Long streaks of bad luck just stall out the game and you end up eating a lot of valuable mats in the process. After a long run of fails, when you finally hit, there is no sense of accomplishment but rather just relief.

 

I think the frustration is a question of mind set. I go into REing expecting the worst and often the system does not dissapoint in that. The two redeeming features of crafting are that at least when I get a schematic, It is mine forever and that I can make (at least pre cap) useful items that have value in leveling.

Edited by asbalana
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I have been very lucky so far and i have a toon making armor and mods and earpieces for like 4 other toons. I think its like the one guy said when there is a random number roll involved it is indeed random. And i too have R/Ed like 12 or more before i get the schematic upgrade but then i get like 3-4 back to back. No problems here. And yea please don't mention EQ crafting..... oh my fingers hurt thinking about it.
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I've had some pretty bad runs lately, so I was wondering if that 20% is static or if it is a base chance that's subject to other modifiers? I've also noticed that I tend to get better results when I RE a bio stack than when I RE individual armour or synth items etc. It's probably just the luck of the roll, but it does appear that I get better results from a stack of 5 than from 5 individuals.
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I definitely think that having such a crucial aspect of a crafting skill be so completely based on random is very bad.

 

Some variability makes the system interesting, but considering how key RE'ing is to the skills to have to rely fully on a gambling mechanic for something like crafting feels out of place.

 

Would really like it if 20% wasn't the chance but the worst case scenario... meaning at most it will take 5 times to RE something. This allows you to calculate the risk much more accurately and considering crafting in RP terms is supposed to be a skill based set of professions the current level of random doesn't really make sense.

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I would be happy with a complete overhaul of crafting with totally new mechanics.

 

However, with what we got (and isn't likely to change) it basically works.

 

I've had bouts of success with RE, and bouts of disasters.

 

Actually, whenever I RE a Black Hole or Dread Guard mod, I feel like I'm at the track betting on the 4 horse to place at 40-1 odds. That 3.8 seconds is pretty nerve wracking to see if I get the swoosh sound or not.

 

"And coming in from the rear is Agile Mod 26, trying to pass One Molec at the rail, can he make it?"

Edited by Khevar
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The biggest problem is player mentality - we always remember the bad streak runs and forget when we got three in a row. The good and the bad balance out over a LONG period of time AND across ALL players who RE; you may be in the middle of a bad streak but the player righht next to you may have gotten two schems in a row.
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Being someone who almost loathes the RNG aspect of many things, I must say crafting in SWTOR often makes me want to take up drinking (Kidding...sorta). Being an omnicrafter it has always boggled my mind that we have these characters that can help shape and mold the galaxy, yet they are all so daft they cannot get better when making a crafting related mistake. Just my 2 cents on this...for now :p Edited by Starburster
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Nope, not broken. And, no offense, but if you don't enjoy the mechanics of crafting why craft? You can buy everything you need from others that enjoy it and usually at very reasonable prices.

 

 

Who said anything about not enjoying it? I simply thought the process might have been bugged.

 

As it turns out I tried relogging after the terrible run of luck and got a schem on the 3rd attempt after that so PERHAPS...that had something to do with it.

 

 

As for those of you saying its a re-roll each time. I understand that, but Im wondering how many of you might not understand odds and statistics. The way it works is like this: Statistically I have a one in 5 chance of hitting a schematic. That means that the more times I attempt and fail, the greater my odds are that I will hit on the next attempt...statistically speaking of course. When you dont hit after 30 or 40 attempts, either the mechanic is broken or you are deep nito a statistical anomally.

 

If you flipped a coin 10 times and hit heads every time, wouldnt you question whether or not the coin was "rigged"?

 

 

Again, I wasnt actually complaining about this topic. I am well aware of the limitations of the system. Just couldnt fathom how my luck was soooo bad for so long.

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Eh, I have a guildmaster who hates the R/E System in here. He has all of the schematics learned for his Artificer, but it's still pretty bad. I remember raging about how many Immunity Cell Cultures it took me to make a certain stim and R/E for blues, but I did have those times where I only had to R/E one and I got lucky. :D

 

I think for higher levels they should implement an increase odds system after each failure, would be nice to not hear people into crafting tell me about how they tried to learn a 26 Schematic only to find that he wasted about 16+ Stabilizers...

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I've had some pretty bad runs lately, so I was wondering if that 20% is static or if it is a base chance that's subject to other modifiers? I've also noticed that I tend to get better results when I RE a bio stack than when I RE individual armour or synth items etc. It's probably just the luck of the roll, but it does appear that I get better results from a stack of 5 than from 5 individuals.

 

Depending on how they set up their RNG it may not be random.

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...

 

As for those of you saying its a re-roll each time. I understand that, but Im wondering how many of you might not understand odds and statistics. The way it works is like this: Statistically I have a one in 5 chance of hitting a schematic. That means that the more times I attempt and fail, the greater my odds are that I will hit on the next attempt...statistically speaking of course. When you dont hit after 30 or 40 attempts, either the mechanic is broken or you are deep nito a statistical anomally.

 

If you flipped a coin 10 times and hit heads every time, wouldnt you question whether or not the coin was "rigged"?

 

...

I apologise in advance for being harsh here, but do YOU understand statistics? You need a large enough sample size for any sort of "dice roll" statistics to be meaningful.

 

100 attempts? Nope

1,000 attempts? Nope

10,000 attempts? Better, but not really enough.

100,000 attempts? More likely to statistically average out.

1,000,000 attempts? Now we're talking.

 

Oh, and here's someone flipping a coin 10 times in a row:

 

And that only required 1,000 flips to find an unbroken set of 10 times landing on the same side. How many RE's are happening on your sever besides yours? All of these need to be taken into account for your statistics.

 

And remember, nobody comes to the forum to complain: "Hey, I just RE'ed 3 times in a row and got a schem each time, that doesn't match the 20% tooltip!"

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I apologise in advance for being harsh here, but do YOU understand statistics? You need a large enough sample size for any sort of "dice roll" statistics to be meaningful.

 

100 attempts? Nope

1,000 attempts? Nope

10,000 attempts? Better, but not really enough.

100,000 attempts? More likely to statistically average out.

1,000,000 attempts? Now we're talking.

 

Oh, and here's someone flipping a coin 10 times in a row:

 

 

 

a statistical anomaly, requiring 1000 coin flips to prove its possible, isnt proof of anything relevant here. In fact it proves the rule, because Id bet on his 11th toss it hit tails because the ODDS were stacked against him. For all we know, he hit tails 10 times in a row right after that. Thats the way odds work. If my experience was just an anamoly, then so be it. Does it hurt anything to ask the question here?

 

Of course the larger the sample size the more accurate the results. DUH! But that doesnt alter the simple FACT that the more times you break the odds, the greater your chance on the next attempt. Huge sample sizes may in fact prove the STATISTICS correct for R/E, but odds are odds and in a RNG system, when the odds APPEAR to break down, I start to question them.

 

How many RE's are happening on your sever besides yours? All of these need to be taken into account for your statistics

 

Statistically, I agree, but none of that alters my ODDS. Someone elses good run of luck doesnt somehow increase my odds of failing. That not how it works man.

 

Im not interested in getting into some kind of pissing match with you about this. If you dont have something useful to add to the conversation please feel free to ignore the topic and move on. Im more interested in hearing a DEV say they've looked at this recently and can verify with THIER metrics that the system is working as intended and that relogging these seeming long odds breaking runs are simply bad luck and not a broken mechanic of the game.

 

 

Remeber this is an admittedly buggy game still. The fact that I relogged and "fixed" my concern may have been pure chance, or it may have reset a broken mechanic. Id like to see others post here if they are able to duplicate the result.

 

If after say 25 or 30 failures, try relogging and post if you hit in the next run of 5.

Edited by Facime
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Facime, I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to start a fight.

 

I've just seen many posts over the past year about people that are worried that RE was broken. Often times, the poster has the gambler's fallacy. This is often followed by talking about statistics.

 

When you say "I'm wondering how many of you might not understand odds and statistics", and are expecting that because you had a bad run your next roll is more likely for you to succeed, it sounds like you are suffering from the Gambler's Fallacy yourself.

 

Each "roll" is independent of any other roll. It doesn't matter how many previous failures or successes there were. The next roll is exactly a 20% of success, and an 80% chance of failure.

 

The only time odds come into the equation is when looking at large amounts of data.

 

Wayyyy back, I was having a bad run and got worried about this myself. I started to keep a spreadsheet of every green -> blue and every blue -> purple. The longer I went, the closer I came to the expected 20% (or 10% on high-level purples).

 

In the many posts complaining about RE, no developer has EVER responded to assure players that the math and the programming are functioning as expected. But other players have done tests to show (within reason) that it appears to be working.

 

I can understand that you're worried that the RE is broken. However, it isn't valid to look at a small sample size and say that statistics are showing that you should have gotten a successful RE by now.

 

Edit: looking over your post again, this stood out (emphasis added by me)

... because Id bet on his 11th toss it hit tails because the ODDS were stacked against him. For all we know, he hit tails 10 times in a row right after that. Thats the way odds work ...

This is, in fact, the gamblers fallacy.

Edited by Khevar
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