I'm a little late to the party, but I'm confused. What is the fleet Kun is using? The Tetan navy is with Ulic correct? And what ships does Kun's fleet (the ones with him) possess-do we know numbers?? Just a little befuddled, that is all.

Exar Kun's forces include the Krath armies and fleets, and the Mandalorian armies and fleets. Fleet numbers are sketchy, but we know he has more than three hundred vessels (having stolen them from the Foerost shipyards).

Exar Kun's forces include the Krath armies and fleets, and the Mandalorian armies and fleets. Fleet numbers are sketchy, but we know he has more than three hundred vessels (having stolen them from the Foerost shipyards).

Xizor offered 300 ships to Vader to protect the Death Star in the bat of an eye.

Xizor offered 300 ships to Vader to protect the Death Star in the bat of an eye.

Well, the 300 ships are the additional ships Ulic captured in the shipyards of Foerost. In total he has the Tetan Navy (unknown number) + Mandalorian Fleet (unknown number) + 300 republic ships.

(By the way, while reading the scene again, I found Exar Kun saying to Ulic: "[Don't attack Coruscant right now.] You'll jeopardize my whole plan. We must build slowly... add to the Forces... then we'll attack together." (Which is pretty much the scenario I described.) So brutish, head on attacks are not everything he does.

I have missed some parts of the debate, I'm not sure if that was discussed before:

 

If Xizor can buy ships and equipment from shipyards, Kun can take them over.

 

As one final point, I'm gonna go ahead and build on this. I'll keep it brief so we can wrap this up.

Xizor relies on mercenaries to do most his fighting. While they are most likely as effective as most soldiers (if they weren't, they wouldn't live long in their line of work), they are very unlikely to fight a losing battle. If at any point in the first conflicts, Kun's (or Ulic's, whoever has command) forces look to be winning, a portion (let's call it around 20%-30%) of Xizor's men will break and run, because no amount of credits is any use to a dead guy. This will make the Xizor's chances of victory even slimmer, leading to more desertions, until it's a full-scale rout.

Further more, any shipyards which produce vessels for Xizor will be wary once Kun's forces demonstrate what happens to those who side against him. I bet a lot would rather stay out of the fight than risk incurring the wrath of a Sith Lord and his monsters.

Scenario:

In the opening stages of the Kaggath Exar Kun orders his apprentice, Ulic Qel-Droma, to invade Coruscant with the Tetan Navy and destroy Xizor. While Kun takes a small Mandalorian Fleet to Malachor V. Traya however foresees the coming invasion and predicts her downfall. So she prepares an elaborate trap to ensnare and kill Kun, fleeing with her assassins and Sion, but leaves her Sith behind. Xizor also gets word of an incoming invasion force heading his way through his intelligence network – realising defeat is inevitable he flees Coruscant with his bodyguard, Guri, and heads to an Outer Rim hideout on Mustafar.

Exar Kun arrives at Malachor V with his Dark Brotherhood and invades the planet’s surface using Basilisk War Droids and then storms the academy. Together with his Brotherhood they easily battle they’re way towards the Trayus Core but rush into a group of Sith armed with a proton bomb, rigged to blow, on the way. Kun’s Force sense alerts him to the danger and he manages to escape alive, but many of his Brotherhood are caught in the blast. Kun soon finds Traya is not in the Academy and assumes that she fled, hoping the bomb would kill him. Focusing himself in Malachor’s dark energies and drawing on his powers in Force sense Kun manages to locate the presence of Darth Sion on Korriban, whom he believes to be Traya, however Traya and her assassins have concealed themselves with the Force and he fails to sense them.

Meanwhile Ulic arrives on Coruscant with his Krath Fleet and attempts a swift invasion; he quickly overwhelms Xizor’s fleet through superior numbers and storms the Palace. But much like Exar Kun he finds that Xizor is not there and finds no trace of where he has gone. Unbeknownst to him however, the Palace has been rigged with explosives, which detonate and vaporise the Sith Lord.

Kun feels Ulic’s death and hastens his departure, leaving only his Dark Brotherhood to guard the Trayus Academy. However soon after jumping to lightspeed he finds himself ripped out of hyperspace by a gravity well generator and is confronted with the full force of Traya’s Sith Fleet. The fleet open fire on Kun immediately and deal heavy damage before he can raise his shields. Hundreds of Sith interceptors move in to engage Kun’s Shaadlar-type troopships which attempt to retreat so they can bring their concussion missile launchers to bear. However their progress is halted by the tractor beams of Traya’s Interdictor-class cruisers. With minimal shielding the troopships are quickly destroyed, allowing Traya’s fleet to focus full attention on Kun’s two Kyramud-type battleships. Traya, who is commanding her forces from afar, uses her ability in shatterpoints to recognise the weaknesses in Kun’s heavily armoured Kyramud’s and has her forces target them. Kun however has been applying heavy fire on Traya’s fleet, and his Basilisk War Droids have been tearing their hulls apart. He manages to cripple the Ravager which his forced to fall back, as well as two Interdictors. Yet Traya orders the weakened Interdictors to ram the Kyramud’s in a suicide attack. Her blindly obedient assassins force the commanders to comply and the Interdictors rush the Kyramuds with all power to engines.

Kun, recognising the imminent danger, orders his remaining forces to concentrate maximum firepower on the Interdictor heading for his ship. He manages to destroy the incoming vessel before it can impact, but the other vessel collides with his second Kyramud and both are destroyed. Realising he is hopelessly outnumbered Kun attempts to retreat, but finds he cannot jump to hyperspace due to the gravity well generators. With a final cry of despair Kun is vaporised along with his ship.

Traya, turning her attention to Xizor, supplies his forces with false information, eventually leading them to believe that both Kun and Traya have perished in mutual destruction. Finding Yavin IV and Malachor V abandoned, Xizor eventually accepts this is the case and returns to Coruscant to celebrate. Traya however has dispatched Darth Sion and a group of Sith assassins in a shuttle to Coruscant. The ship goes undetected in the mass thoroughfare of the planet and lands in the Palace District, close to Xizor’s Palace. Sion has his assassins infiltrate the palace and disable any starships inside, cutting off any chance of escape. They then disable the Palace’s defences and Sion storms the Palace. Xizor attempts to make a hasty escape, sending Guri to confront Sion and buy him time. But Sion makes short work of Guri and pursues his quarry, quickly catching up with Xizor in his private hangar. In desperation Xizor fires a few harmless bolts and Sion bats them aside with his lightsaber and then proceeds to decapitate the Prince. Sion returns to Traya and informs her of his success.

IMPORTANT ANNOUCEMENT: THIS DEBATE IS CLOSED

 

Victor: Darth Traya

 

Second Place: Prince Xizor

 

May I turn your attention to Bonus Round: Darth Revan vs Prince Xizor which will determine who takes 3rd place.

 

Thanks for debating! That is all.

This doesn't seem right.

Well, you did present a scenario in which ended that way and it is a scenario which works. But it depends on the fact, that everything goes wrong for Exar Kun, and nothing goes wrong for Traya. Possible, but I wouldn't call it likely.

So, did you do the Argument-points count you did in earlier Kaggaths when they were close? If you did, please let us know the numbers. If you didn't, please do one.

This doesn't seem right.

 

Well, you did present a scenario in which ended that way and it is a scenario which works. But it depends on the fact, that everything goes wrong for Exar Kun, and nothing goes wrong for Traya. Possible, but I wouldn't call it likely.

 

So, did you do the Argument-points count you did in earlier Kaggaths when they were close? If you did, please let us know the numbers. If you didn't, please do one.

Well, we've been debating Kun vs Traya for a whole week in heavy detail. And even Aurbere admitted Kun would fall into the trap. I made the decision the trap would succeed. 2 Kyramuds vs 10+ Interdictors seems in Traya's favour. A lot of things would have to go right for Kun to beat Traya. Namely, Ulic stumbles on a wormhole that takes his fleet from Coruscant to Malachor in a matter of seconds. But this debate is over now, I'll try and get a tally out soon if you want.

Well, for the specific 2 Kyramuds vs 10+ Interdictors we had several scenarios. It could go either way and Traya both seem to have a chance of winning this. The "all goes wrong for Kun" is basically that:

Ulic is killed by the explosives on Coruscant and Kun goes there immediately and Traya is right on the way to pull them out of hyperspace and Traya's fleet wins the battle (and the loosing Kun doesn't attempt to board one of her ships)

possible, of course. But I wouldn't call it likely.

Well, for the specific 2 Kyramuds vs 10+ Interdictors we had several scenarios. It could go either way and Traya both seem to have a chance of winning this. The "all goes wrong for Kun" is basically that:

 

Ulic is killed by the explosives on Coruscant and Kun goes there immediately and Traya is right on the way to pull them out of hyperspace and Traya's fleet wins the battle (and the loosing Kun doesn't attempt to board one of her ships)

 

possible, of course. But I wouldn't call it likely.

Remember it's just a scenario, you shouldn't read to much into it. Yes this is just one of the possible outcomes, but it is based on the fact that the arguments for Traya were stronger than the arguments against. This is just one of the many ways Kun could lose. If some things had gone right for Kun it wouldn't have made a difference e.g. if Ulic had escaped alive he wouldn't have been able find Xizor, if Kun had decided to stay at Malachor there are all manner of ways that she could draw him out (which were discussed at length), if Kun had decided to board a ship, Trays would just have had it self destruct.

 

(Xizor is not allowed to hide forever by the rules and I argued that at least the Ravager doesn't seem to have a self destruct and would have to jump into a nearby star while keeping Kun occupied. But I just found out I missed a scenario I should have argued against.)

OK, let's move on. I'm looking forward to the next round of Kaggaths. Have you already decided the opponents?

OK, let's move on. I'm looking forward to the next round of Kaggaths. Have you already decided the opponents?

The Tournament isn't quite over yet. This 'bonus round' is deciding who gets 3rd place. And then we have the finals.

I know, but I suspect Revan will win the bonus round and Traya will win the finals, both seem to have some amount of plot armor going for them. Things will get interesting again in the next round of Kaggaths.

I know, but I suspect Revan will win the bonus round and Traya will win the finals, both seem to have some amount of plot armor going for them. Things will get interesting again in the next round of Kaggaths.

It's sad to see you lost faith in me due to a simple mistake. Its incidents like these that discourage me from doing more rounds...

Well, I do have faith in you for most of the time. During most Kaggaths you have been very fair and impartial. I'ts only with Traya that I don't trust your judgment anymore, because she already did have victories on earlier points which didn't seem that plausible to many debaters.

Revan and the Sith Emperor also had victories I would call debatable. Debatable, but not problematic. The only real problem I have is your handling of Traya.

Maybe, in the next rounds, you could look at the opponents at the beginning and decide which one you like the most. Then you could hand this specific Kaggath over to someone else and participate as debater.

Maybe, in the next rounds, you could look at the opponents at the beginning and decide which one you like the most. Then you could hand this specific Kaggath over to someone else and participate as debater.

Like me!? If that does happen, sign me up Beni!

Well, I do have faith in you for most of the time. During most Kaggaths you have been very fair and impartial. I'ts only with Traya that I don't trust your judgment anymore, because she already did have victories on earlier points which didn't seem that plausible to many debaters.

 

Revan and the Sith Emperor also had victories I would call debatable. Debatable, but not problematic. The only real problem I have is your handling of Traya.

 

Maybe, in the next rounds, you could look at the opponents at the beginning and decide which one you like the most. Then you could hand this specific Kaggath over to someone else and participate as debater.

But I really don't see the problem, I've done a tally and it shows Traya to be the victor. I'd ask you to trust that I didn't give her 20 extra points on a whim. That is just a blatant disregard of the facts. I really think Traya killing Kun was far more plausible than the other way around. Read the thread again, many plausible points for Traya defeating Kun were left uncountered or not sufficiently countered. If anything the points for Kun where implausible e.g. Kun staying at Malachor and waiting 8 days for Ulic to come back while Traya burns down his Temples (in what universe would Kun do nothing?) At one point Aurbere even admitted Traya would win. Then reverted to his original stance, despite his final point directly contradicting his former position (that Traya would win the space battle - no offense Aurbere.) I really think people's biased towards Kun, which is leading people to ignore the facts, is just as responsible for these problems as my supposed 'biased' towards Traya (which is really just a automatic suspicion that everyone has when I declare my favourite character a winner.) Just like it was with Revan. I'd also like to take this moment to point out that Grievous is my second favourite Star Wars character, right behind Traya and in front of Sidious. I have little favour towards Revan whatsoever, I only defend him in the face of anti-Revan opinions. I couldn't care less if he wins this Kaggath or is retconned into N-Canon.

The only thing I will confess to is calling the fight too early, and not giving people a chance to counter the point against Xizor. And for that I apologize.

But enough of this, its time to move on.

If only to restore your faith in me, maybe I'll confer with another (Aurbere ) before I call it. However I don't see much room for biased when totting up tallies as I have done here (which shows Traya won by a long mile.) The only way I could be referred to as biased is the fact I put forward a lot of points for Traya. However that is only because, Traya being a favorite character, I have extensive knowledge of her, while I have little knowledge of Kun or Xizor. Not that that makes a difference unless by points are fabricated and false.

 

But I really don't see the problem, I've done a tally and it shows Traya to be the victor. I'd ask you to trust that I didn't give her 20 extra points on a whim. That is just a blatant disregard of the facts. I really think Traya killing Kun was far more plausible than the other way around. Read the thread again, many plausible points for Traya defeating Kun were left uncountered or not sufficiently countered. If anything the points for Kun where implausible e.g. Kun staying at Malachor and waiting 8 days for Ulic to come back while Traya burns down his Temples (in what universe would Kun do nothing?) At one point Aurbere even admitted Traya would win. Then reverted to his original stance, despite his final point directly contradicting his former position (that Traya would win the space battle - no offense Aurbere.) I really think people's biased towards Kun, which is leading people to ignore the facts, is just as responsible for these problems as my supposed 'biased' towards Traya (which is really just a automatic suspicion that everyone has when I declare my favourite character a winner.) Just like it was with Revan. I'd also like to take this moment to point out that Grievous is my second favourite Star Wars character, right behind Traya and in front of Sidious. I have little favour towards Revan whatsoever, I only defend him in the face of anti-Revan opinions. I couldn't care less if he wins this Kaggath or is retconned into N-Canon.

 

The only thing I will confess to is calling the fight too early, and not giving people a chance to counter the point against Xizor. And for that I apologize.

 

But enough of this, its time to move on.

OK, well, then I take back what I said about you being biased for Revan.

The points are a good tool to increase the objectivity and I really appreciate that you counted them. However, as I said, when I counted them, I got 26-26-25 (I missed a Traya scenario last time which gave her tree more points). I guess mine is more inaccurate than yours. My problem is not so much Traya winning this Kaggath, but Traya winning this Kaggath and the Kaggath against Revan. But if you confer with Aurbere before calling the finals, you have restored my faith in you.

By the way, this isn't the only reason I am more interested in the next round than the bonus round and final. It is basically the same effect as in RL tournaments. When your team is out, and you don't have a second favorite, you start caring more for the next time than the resto of the tournament. (Several times I watched the semi-finals of the football world cup, but not the finals.) I don't like either of them winning this Kaggath. Their voctories wouldn't be undeserved, though. (I should have said that earlier, to not sound too discourageing. Sorry.)