If you agree with my philosophy please join us.

 

Forgottowipe.com

 

I wonder just how many of the developers have actually raided seriously in an MMO. Hell I wonder how many have played an MMO, in beta they didnt have chat links for gear and didnt seem to understand why the playerbase wanted them. We still dont have linkable weapons. It is small things like this that have me question their philosophy and if they even have a design vision.

 

The wishy washy stance on many issues and seemingly incompatible views such as no dungeon finder, which so far they are adamant against, as well as metrics such as threat meters and combat logs which they are adamantly against has completely thrown me for a loop.

 

So here I want to make things clear. If BioWare wants to have a game that even begins to compete with that other game, hell if it wants to compete with EQ2 or RIFT they are going to have to step up their raiding game and provide the tools for raiding. Right now it is a joke.

 

The reason is simple. If you dont have meaningful leaders in the game, guilds competing for world first kills, raids that are difficult enough to merit that kind of competition and the hardcore guilds that strive for such then they will not have masses of players aspiring to be anything within the game and the players will have little investment in their characters.

 

From the Guild Summit:

 

"Darth Hater: Q: Metrics for Operations? When will we get threat meters and combat logs? Gabe: We don't want to rely as much as meters, we want to rely more on visual in-game cues. We do want to have those metrics though. They're not in 1.2 though. Georg: We do realize it is useful to figure out what is being done wrong. But we don't want to people to be able to go out and judge you. With 1.2 you will be able to enable a chat log feature that indicates what killed you or what you killed. We also will have a detailed parseable combat log able to be written to disc. The log will not be available in-game."

 

If you dont have threat meters we will have to create asinine thresh-holds such as three sunders. Three sunders is the standard in Classic WoW due to no threat meters.

 

Let me tell you how we did server first Onyxia kills. her knock-back did a threat reduction. So, we began by doing three sunders, that didn't work because of the threat reduction on here wing buffet. Then we realized what happened and we started doing a manual timer count. We would have an announcer tell the entire raid to stop dps after a wing buffet. then count to 7 and then tell the entire raid to begin DPS again. I do not think this type of extreme discipline and being told what to do is going to work hand in hand with the atmosphere that you are trying to develop with this game.

 

So let me continue on with the story of threat meters. There are combat logs in WoW, have been since beta. After Onyxia it was obvious we needed something. SO some clever folks whipped out their hardcore RDX addons, ya know the original boss mods that you had to learn to code and create yourself in game, and decided to go beat on a mob and then see how much damage was needed for that mob to change targets. They did this for every ability in game.....and discovered the threat tables, the inherent threat of abilities, and created the first threat meters. If forget the names but nowadays we have Omen and Skada in WoW. They are great albeit WoW removed the need for threat management when they buffed all tanks including hunter pets 5%.

 

So, you see, we are going to work it out, we require these addons, this knowledge. We are hardcore. Lets talk about the incoming combat logs.

 

You do realise that there are parsers out there such as ACT, which I have used for EVERY SINGLE MMO I HAVE PLAYED(eq2, RIFT, AOC, etc). You realize that you will be writing these player only logs to a text file and that we are used to uploading these combat logs to World of Raids or other similar offline parsers and that these offline parsers allow for multiple uploads of the same encounter so as to get a more accurate picture of what happened because there are some issues such as being too far away from other members to get what they do logged.

 

SO, we will simply have EVERY PLAYER in the raid upload their combat log for the raid to the offline parser, or email it to our guild gmail account and have the leaders upload all of them.

 

So, I just want you to know the lengths to which we will go to know the details that will make us world first/server first.

 

If you intend to have the current wow model of threat where it doesnt matter, fine no threat meters are great whatever. However, we will find a way to get those combat logs and we will mandate everyone upload their logs to the website etc.

 

You need to decide if this is ok for the reputation of SWTOR because like it or not the behavior of your players is directly related to what you allow them to do and the tools you give them.

 

Currently your raids are ezmode, wow raid finder quality. If you intend to have serious raids you will have to address these things.

 

If you are going to snub hard core raiders, then expect the mass exodus of hard core raiders and the decline of SWTOR as your playerbase as it reverts to sandbox mode with no aspirations other than playing the story, getting max level and logging off.

 

You have a lot riding on 1.2 and the subsequent Tier 2 raids.

 

Mists of Pandaria beta is expected to start right around that time as well.

 

Get it together, your lines have been drawn.

 

EDIT: "What if there never is any hard core raids or tools?"

 

Humanity loves to put people on a pedestal and cheer at them and strive to be them and then turn right around and cheer when they fall.

 

WolTK is when hard core raiders fell. We had already farmed Naxx for months in Classic and we refused to do the dumbed down version, so we started to leave, the masses have been cheering ever since. Fast forward to Cataclysm, 2 million subs lost. That is more than SWTOR even has. Naxx 2.0 is when the hardcore exodus began.

 

Be careful what you wish for. Soon there will be no difficulty at all in raids and no one willing to take up that cup.

 

Imagine if there was no NBA or NFL. Who would you aspire to be, who would you love to watch play, who would you love to criticize?

 

We are leaving MMOs en masse. You have shunned us over and over, we have moved on to other generes or stopped playing all together.

 

If you do not have something difficult, something that requires a community to defeat, there will be no community. There will simply be a Massively Single Player Online Role Playing Game.

 

That is what WoW is now. I can log on, speak to no one, queue for dungeons, queue for raids and get my purples.

 

Who needs friends?

 

Who needs a community?

 

This is the slipperly slope, WoW is at the bottom already and SWTOR has just begun the ride.

Edited March 12, 2012 by Dejoblue

oh noes, no hate meter... how very very terrible for you.

Wait... 'raids' are hard? Are you saying you can't do them because you don't have threat meters?

Currently your raids are ezmode, wow raid finder quality. If you intend to have serious raids you will have to address these things.

 

If you are going to snub hard core raiders, then expect the mass exodus of hard core raiders and the decline of SWTOR as your playerbase as it reverts to sandbox mode with no aspirations other than playing the story, getting max level and logging off.

 

 

Only 38% of the level 50 player base raid. Of those what percent do you think are "hard core"?

I agree with you OP with everything you are talking about.

 

It is sad that so many in this thread don't care about the watered down quality they are receiving. Sadly that's going to be a standard in the industry going forward. It's happening all around us.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Xanikk

The wishy washy stance on many issues and seemingly incompatible views such as no dungeon finder, which so far they are adamant against, as well as metrics such as threat meters and combat logs which they are adamantly against has completely thrown me for a loop.

 

People were having a blast with MMOs long before any of the listed items became ''standard'' (i.e. WoW did it, so we must also) features.

 

Dont get me wrong, I think BioWare have failed to deliver almost accross the board with TOR, especially at end game, but your listed ''missing'' features are far from being the worst offence. Start with end game difficulty, lack of content and the engine problems, then come back and complain about the UI.

Only 38% of the level 50 player base raid. Of those what percent do you think are "hard core"?

 

Citation needed.

You know what's sad? While reading that well thought-out, fairly insightful post, I knew before scrolling down that the first few replies would be nothing more than the standard head-in-the sand "nuh uh shut up/ok quit then" drivel that is so prevalent in any thread that has the audacity to bring up legitimate concerns and criticisms about the game.

 

Get it together, ToR community.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Dasthug

Citation needed.

 

5th bullet point:

 

http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/19973-guild-summit-stream-live-blog/page-3

 

38% of level 50 players have participated in an Operation.

@OP - wrong forum bro. I hear ya. But you will get slammed to oblivion in these forums.

 

For hardcore raiding -- this is not the game you're looking for.

It isn't about threat meters or combat logs. It is about the lengths to which we will go to get such information.

 

Currently their planned implementation is all around bad. The hardcores are going to spread the word that it is like pulling teeth to get this information, that everyone has to upload logs, that there is a management nightmare in gathering this information. That is bad for the hardcore community perception of the game.

 

As for the casuals, they are going to scream bloody murder. "OMG they want me to upload my combat log after the raid and they yelled at me to stop DPS because there is no threat meter" Which is bad for the casual perception of the game.

You know what's sad? While reading that well thought-out, fairly insightful post, I knew before scrolling down that the first few replies would be nothing more than the standard head-in-the sand "nuh uh shut up/ok quit then" drivel that is so prevalent in any thread that has the audacity to bring up legitimate concerns and criticisms about the game.

 

Get it together, ToR community.

 

There is plenty of drivel being slung around this forum on both sides of the fence. Let's be honest, at least.

You know what's sad? While reading that well thought-out, fairly insightful post, I knew before scrolling down that the first few replies would be nothing more than the standard head-in-the sand "nuh uh shut up/ok quit then" drivel that is so prevalent in any thread that has the audacity to bring up legitimate concerns and criticisms about the game.

 

Get it together, ToR community.

 

Not sure how you can call it well thought out when it is riddled with false information.

Slavishly copying WoW won't make SWTOR as successful as WoW (sub-wise).

 

Being different might..... and even if it doesn't it can still mean avoiding the pitfalls of WoW.

 

 

 

WoW has never been the best MMORPG, it's just been the most popular, there's a world of difference.

a "hardcore raider" is nothing more than a figment of one's imagination. The only reason these so called 'hardcore raiders' hate SWTOR is because it doesn't require 80 hours a week to raid. Casual people can raid in SWTOR and gear up in a reasonable amount of time. This makes these 'hardcore raiders' mad because now their efforts are not as special as everyone elses. There is really a simple solution, either change your false belief of what raiding is to what it really is or get your epeen from some other game.

Just leave, this place will be a lot better once you do.

 

Really? That's all you've got??

 

Seriously, the poster is exactly the kind of player SWTOR needs.

Not sure how you can call it well thought out when it is riddled with false information.

 

Really? riddled? Please.

@OP - wrong forum bro. I hear ya. But you will get slammed to oblivion in these forums.

 

For hardcore raiding -- this is not the game you're looking for.

 

Death and Taxes are here for 1.2 so is Ensidia. We are/were Nephilum the splinter of DNT after the BC split, we intend to compete........that is of course if the raids are worth competing in.

 

I am not giving an ultimatum I have simply spoken to many of these people and SWTOR basically has Tier 2 to show us that this is worth our time and effort, that it IS hardcore, that NIGHTMARE is actually a nightmare.

 

If it isnt, we will be in MoP beta.

5th bullet point:

 

http://www.darthhater.com/articles/swtor-news/19973-guild-summit-stream-live-blog/page-3

 

38% of level 50 players have participated in an Operation.

 

Who said that at the guild summit? For all we know it could of been a developer put on the spot making up a number.

 

It doesn't site any facts to that quote on that page. I can only take that statement with a grain of salt.

I wonder just how many of the developers have actually raided seriously in an MMO.

 

You're confusing "serious" raiding with "OCD" raiding. I take raiding seriously, read up on strats, even take videos of our runs to look over. But I'm not gonna spend hours parsing combat logs and testing on training dummies to get every last 0.0000000000001% of DPS out of my toon.

 

I'm a serious raider. You "I can't raid with out a combat log" raiders are OCD raiders.

It isn't about threat meters or combat logs. It is about the lengths to which we will go to get such information.

 

Currently their planned implementation is all around bad. The hardcores are going to spread the word that it is like pulling teeth to get this information, that everyone has to upload logs, that there is a management nightmare in gathering this information. That is bad for the hardcore community perception of the game.

 

As for the casuals, they are going to scream bloody murder. "OMG they want me to upload my combat log after the raid and they yelled at me to stop DPS because there is no threat meter" Which is bad for the casual perception of the game.

 

 

 

 

It used to be like this, WoW has made everything "lite" (not hardcore, most certainly lite).

 

The idea what the WoW raid paradigm is the ultimate that has ever been or ever can be is frankly ridiculous.

 

All it is is EQ1 raiding with add-ons and made much easier.

To clarify I am against dungeon finder but for logs and addons etc. My point was that there doesn't seem to be a vision, a direction. If there was a direction then these things would work themselves out and not be contradictory.

Death and Taxes are here for 1.2 so is Ensidia. We are/were Nephilum the splinter of DNT after the BC split, we intend to compete........that is of course if the raids are worth competing in.

 

I am not giving an ultimatum I have simply spoken to many of these people and SWTOR basically has Tier 2 to show us that this is worth our time and effort, that it IS hardcore, that NIGHTMARE is actually a nightmare.

 

If it isnt, we will be in MoP beta.

 

For The Horde, Irae Aod are also here by the way. They will leave as soon as MoP beta comes out. SWTOR is really not for the hardcore. Way too easy.

Death and Taxes are here for 1.2 so is Ensidia. We are/were Nephilum the splinter of DNT after the BC split, we intend to compete........that is of course if the raids are worth competing in.

 

I am not giving an ultimatum I have simply spoken to many of these people and SWTOR basically has Tier 2 to show us that this is worth our time and effort, that it IS hardcore, that NIGHTMARE is actually a nightmare.

 

If it isnt, we will be in MoP beta.

 

I'm not a 'hardcore' raider but I do enjoy raid-level (read: challenging and requiring large groups of people to work together) content.

 

However, as a 'competitive' raider, is it not clear by now that the SWTOR devs simply do not care what you all want / think?

 

Combat logs are as old as online gaming. And yet, here you are months after launch and all they talk about is some hard-to-use, 'write-to-disk', textual format. Essentially, they are saying they will provide all of the tools you need, but they are going to make them so painful to use no one will.

 

Seems like a big FU.

I think that the overall problem is that the Operations aren't difficult enough to even bother needing combat logs or a threat meter. I wish they were...