I've tried 0/31/15 yesterday Phil. Force Management without Raze is awful Discharge's dot ticks hard but offers no synergy with the rest of the rotation, you need to shock often in order to burst and there goes your force regen. With 1 more point to spec into Raze +Impose Weakness it would have been the best assassin dps spec imo.

0/29/17 (or 1/29/16) plays better but lacks on-demand burst, you play it with 2 rotations, shock+DF+Maul as burst rotation, Discharge refresh+Thrash/SS+Crushing Darkness as force regen/filler rotation. Don't think it will do great in rated cause the ramp up is to long, unless you can pre-dot people and proc duplicity before calling targets.

Hello guys!

I'm old Infiltration(Deception) Shadow(Assassin) PvE player since release, and I will write only about PvE nad only about Full Deception spec.

With these changes, I'm quite satisfied cause finally, we have a decent force sustainer, it's frustrating to use Saber Strike when you have BIGBOMB Hit to use ; Yes they (a bit or not, idk cause with actually stats I can't test it) nerfed damages of shock, but we can have ALL things DPS depends on damage AND TIME, and a new sustained system is a generic "buff of dps", if we have sustain we can't have big numbers (or having bug numbers with no sustain), so imho the changes are good (I hope , atm it's all theory)

You guys are missing the big picture which is that they did not reveal the changes to the skills in the trees when they gave a "General" overview of the changes to the classes. VS missing the shock buff might not be such a deal breaker when you're getting a "free" Duplicity buff from every Low slash and Spike separate from the normal rate limit of 9sec (if the datamined info continues to very closely coincide w todays reveal). In PvE, that's 2x the procced mauls at a minimum, plus one for every time you cloak out to refresh your regen rate. In PvP Spike, auto-proc maul, low slash, auto-proc maul, VS (maul proc) maul again... our burst Dmg in Deception is still going to be there, but it appears like they are moving it to a backstab heavy motif.

 

Also, who knows what they buffed Surging charge dmg to, plus the fact that you will now likely only need 3 stacks to max out discharge now vs. the 5 we currently never build up to. Nerve Wracking is supposedly moving to our tree and I'm also very psyched about the new +10% dmg to all targets under 30% hp talent if it shows up here as well. If even half the datamined info makes it into 2.0 - we will be in a much better place than we are today, which is not such a bad place to begin with.

+1 at all, same things I think

The above poster is wrong about his assessment, I will do my best to give you the new skinny on Deception and how it will affect your precious sniper.

 

First off, many people are complaining about the decrease in crit and defense, people need to realize that armor and crit rating are going to appear to be lower because there is 5 more levels. They try to keep crit around 15%-20% all through leveling even though your crit rate is going to increase as you level. As we get the new 55 level gear you will see your crit get back to where it was. Same with armor, they want you to pretty much have the same armor % as you level, so early levels basically scale better with less armor rating. Many MMO's do this, it is not new. Assassin crit will be the same as it is now when you get the level 55 BiS gear.

 

As far as Shock and Discharge changes. IMO even though Shock damage was nerfed from the Voltaic Slash talent, Voltaic Slash is now buffing our Discharge. I am Discharging 3-5x's as much now which more than makes up for the damage reduction to Shock. And let me tell you, Shock is still hitting pretty hard. They also made it easier to build Induction stacks so you are actually Shocking more too. It used to be that you needed 5 stacks of static charges to get full damage potential from Discharge, but it was a pain to get those 5 stacks, most used Discharge off of CD (18sec) with 2-4 charges with descent damage. Well, now not only do you only need 3 stacks to get to full bang, but Shock adds your third charge for you, so you are at 3 charges pretty much the same time your Shock comes off of cd. Many many times last night I Shocked and Discharged together. Discharge is hitting a bit harder, and Shock is hitting a bit less, but the frequency on both has increased. Just off of those two abilities, I foresee an overall sustained damage increase.

 

That should not scare the Sniper at all, this next paragraph will. Maul is the hardest hitting ability in the game. I have 8 toons, 1 each AC, and tested them all last night. Maul hits harder than Ambush, hits harder than Scream, hits harder than Smash, harder than HSM, harder than Railshot. Now, that being said, we used to only Maul on our Exploit Weakness proc which usually procced in the first few globals of opening and then again about every 10 seconds after. Well, that proc rate remains, but now we can also proc Exploit Weakness off of Low Slash and Spike on a different proc timer that has nothing to do with the original timer. These abilities will proc the Exploit Weakness even if the stun is resisted (*Entrench*). So I am guaranteed an Exploit Weakness Maul when I open with spike. And I can Low Slash for another Exploit Weakness, and that Maul can actually proc its original Exploit Weakness so basically Maul can proc itself, for two 8k Mauls in a row lol.

 

Basically, Shock and Discharge are going to buff our sustained damage, and the mechanics on these were re worked to add synergy between talents and give the rotation more flow. Our burst is going to come from Maul and how often it procs. Even though Maul is hitting harder and twice as frequent, it is a positionally based ability and will require quite a bit of skill to exploit the full potential of this ability.

 

That all being said, I played my sniper last night too, I think Snipers are gonna wreck Assassins, you guys better start practicing lol.

+1

I agree, the actually stats on PTS can't work as well..390crit rating for a 6% of crit chance..it's joke!

At first I thought the changes were bad, but they may be good; Discharge no longer has a CD. For maximum damage, I think it would be best to use it anytime you have 1 Static charge, since they will be relatively rare. Since shock's cd is 6 seconds, You can get in a discharge (from the 100% proc off static charges) every six seconds right after shock, which is good.

 

I'd take being to use discharge twice the normal rate and having it do normal damage than double the new rate and doing 1.3 times normal damage any day. The VS shock dmg nerf is disgusting, hopefully the discharge change will make up for it.

Finally 3 players that don't cry about nerfed damages of shock/etc..I see a lot players that whine about 2.0 but like me you have understood the basic changes of deception.

Generally, if you get nerfed, crying doesn't help: the only way is to start to study new skill/changes and rotations to do the best with your skills.

ps: I disagree about using Discharge with whatever stacks, Imho it's too much lost dps..At least at least 2/3stacks but this must be tested.

Ok, so I finally got on the PTS, and played around a while.

 

Full Arkanian DPS gear, un min/maxed, with my old power WH relics. Beating on the level 50 warzone dummy on the fleet for consistency.

 

Melee primary damage 1219 - 1500

Melee bonus damage 657.1

Force bonus damage 1057.1

71.06% Surge

23.84% crit

 

Poorly optimized gear out of the box once again

 

Full infiltration 5/36/5

1 stack Discharge noncrits for 600-650, and crits for about 1.4k

2 stacks non crits for 1.9-2.1k and crits for about 4 - 4.4k

3 stacks non crits for about 2.6k, and crits ranged from 5.6 - 6k

New Shock non crits for about 2k, and crits for 4.6

Maul (w/ Duplicity proc) non crits for 3.7 - 4k, and crit for 7.7 - 8k

 

Lower half Madness builds xx/xx/16

Deathfield noncrits for roughly 2.5k, and crits for around 4.3k

 

Full Madness 5/4/37

Deathfield noncrits for 2.5k, and crits for about 5.1k

 

In all specs, the first big hit of Crushing Darkness noncrits for around 1.4k, and crits for about 2.4k

 

Now of course these numbers will mean absolutely nothing in terms of how hard we actually will hit, as I was in garbage gear beating on a dummy. But I think they can give us an idea of how hard abilities are hitting compared to each other, mainly the new Surging Discharge, which at 3 stacks, remains our second hardest hitting ability after Maul. But it does take a very long time to get 3 stacks, and hybrids not picking up VS, such as 0/31/15 will probably never see 3 stacks in small scale fights.

 

Take what you will from this.

I have pretty same numbers, full arkanian without augs/relics:

Bonus Dmg: 647.2 (2254 willpower, 755 power)

Accuracy: 97.15% (216 accuracy rating)

Crit chance: 23.74% (395 crit rating)

Multipl: 70,06% (360 surge rating)

-Project/Shock: 2017 - 2126 (if proc Upheaval/Chain Shock: 3025,5 - 3189)

-Shadow Strike/Maul: 4873,5 - 4834,7

-Spinning Strike/Assassinate: 4000 - 4578

-Force Breach/Discharge (with 3stacks): 1869 - 2034(623-678 per stack)

-Clairvoyant Strike/Voltaic Slash: 1099 - 1258

Looking only numbers we have: Shock>Discharge

Shock and Discharge (with 3/3 stacks) have pretty same dmg but IMHO it's better have Shock>Discharge cause Shock procs stack for Discharge.

About build (I don't try te other one) I have only played 5/36/5 and I think Torment must be taked cause Induction lowers ONLY 25% (from 50%) with 2stacks and we need from actually live more sustain.

Btw we must see the force regen with correct curve of alacrity..maybe with more effect we can ignore Torment. no?

[..]

 

However, now that discharge basically REQUIRES three full stacks before it's even worth using, you simply can't justify losing the total dps for extra burst because you won't have any extra burst. Opening with discharge is a thing of the past.

 

I do have some dps parsing for you:

Deception: 2300+

Madness: 2200+

Darkness: 1500+

 

[..]

Huge numbers with lags on pts, GJ!

Sorry for my english I know it's so bad.

NB: For all Deception Players that want to discuss about 2.0 I will be happy if you come to write here too:

http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forums/forum-9.html

I've tried 0/31/15 yesterday Phil. Force Management without Raze is awful Discharge's dot ticks hard but offers no synergy with the rest of the rotation, you need to shock often in order to burst and there goes your force regen. With 1 more point to spec into Raze +Impose Weakness it would have been the best assassin dps spec imo.

 

0/29/17 (or 1/29/16) plays better but lacks on-demand burst, you play it with 2 rotations, shock+DF+Maul as burst rotation, Discharge refresh+Thrash/SS+Crushing Darkness as force regen/filler rotation. Don't think it will do great in rated cause the ramp up is to long, unless you can pre-dot people and proc duplicity before calling targets.

Thx for your feedback, I've tested it too and you are right, its not bad but the force management is terrible

edit: My new dps try http://pts.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/sith-assassin/222/?build=000000000000000000000000000000000322130021102030001000000000000003220322012200010122000000000000&ver=20

One thing to keep in mind when parsing as an assassin (dec or mad) is we both get a bonus to targets below 30% health. Considering no one parses long enough to get the ship dummy that low, no ones parses effect that bonus.

Right now I only think Lethality Operatives and Lethality Snipers have a similar ability.

So deception is no longer bursty, it seems like ever other class got a bit more bursty expect for assassins.. deception is ****, madness is crappy too, and darkness has bad force management.

I would like to see some better changes to everything overall.

Or I might just unsub, seriously.

I'm testing out http://pts.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/sith-assassin/222/?build=022322201121023002120200100000000200000000000000000000000000000003222100010200000000000000000000&ver=20

It's similar to my live character's spec, and despite getting used to using darkward again, it seemed quite viable. Albeit I only did so much testing.

The fotm on the pts seems to be snipers, and using my shield as well and popping deflection, among other things, really helps to get them down hard.

With my old play style, the only thing I am loosing is the 30% buff to maul hits (when procced), and I'm also missing 15% from chainshock as well. I'll also miss nerve wracking.

It's sort of a shinrika 2.0, if you will though I realise the shinrika spec would take the less cost spec of deathfield.

One thing to keep in mind when parsing as an assassin (dec or mad) is we both get a bonus to targets below 30% health. Considering no one parses long enough to get the ship dummy that low, no ones parses effect that bonus.

 

Right now I only think Lethality Operatives and Lethality Snipers have a similar ability.

Assault troopers/Pyro BHs get the same thing.

Imagine if our DoTs ticked as hard... or, you know, Madness/Balance got a burst proc that provided regen. Or a cooldown that provided regen, or another cooldown that provided regen...

Such a fail tree now.

So deception is no longer bursty, it seems like ever other class got a bit more bursty expect for assassins.. deception is ****, madness is crappy too, and darkness has bad force management.

 

I would like to see some better changes to everything overall.

 

Or I might just unsub, seriously.

Deception is not sustained damage. Realize deception is meant for a 6-10 second encounter and for a quick and easy kill. You can't use surging charge without a stack? Terrible. Madness without the deathmarks that restore force? Terrible. I've parsed dps with 4-5 classes so far, and my friends have done all of them. Madness is among the lowest among our group of 5. Deception is near the bottom middle, and for darkness your damage reduction seems a bit off. It was extremely hard to keep me up when I was tanking scum & villainy.

This happens when people complain about a class. Vanguards/Powertechs destroy everybody when they run right tree dps, and nobody says a thing. An assassin runs a hybrid and gets a kill and people cry for nerfs. Huh?

Deception is not sustained damage. Realize deception is meant for a 6-10 second encounter and for a quick and easy kill. You can't use surging charge without a stack? Terrible. Madness without the deathmarks that restore force? Terrible. I've parsed dps with 4-5 classes so far, and my friends have done all of them. Madness is among the lowest among our group of 5. Deception is near the bottom middle, and for darkness your damage reduction seems a bit off. It was extremely hard to keep me up when I was tanking scum & villainy.

 

This happens when people complain about a class. Vanguards/Powertechs destroy everybody when they run right tree dps, and nobody says a thing. An assassin runs a hybrid and gets a kill and people cry for nerfs. Huh?

Well, unfortunately, 1.4 actually LEVELED the playing field for assassins. Players before 1.4 that were use to a class that kinda under performed, started to have an advantage because they didn't get lazy and rely on the superior qualities of their class to compete.

Don't forget, you see a lot of the same classes in PVP for a reason. Lazy players want lazy fixes (nerfs/buffs anything that favors them). They will also be the first to use the phrase (L2P).

However, with the aforementioned stated, I don't think any of the assassins (or any of the overly well performing classes.. cough, cough) will make it to live in their current PTS state. When reviewing the top talents of each assassin tree, I noticed that there are skills that can be tweaked here and there to create parity with other dps/tank specs.

Madness for instance, could just have a hard boost to DoTs and their problem is fixed. Maybe a small amount of force regeneration from deathmarks would help too; however, with the removal of unearthed knowledge and the use for shock.... we'll see.

Deception has their assassinate boost at the end of their tree and any modification they want to do with discharge to bring them back in line.

Darkness can have their DC live recovery boosted to assist them in the tanking department.... However, this isn't so great when getting mobbed by 4 enemies at once.

We'll see.... But all the players feeling good about their class on PTS better be prepared that things may change in a south direction. We will see.

Well, unfortunately, 1.4 actually LEVELED the playing field for assassins. Players before 1.4 that were use to a class that kinda under performed, started to have an advantage because they didn't get lazy and rely on the superior qualities of their class to compete.

 

Don't forget, you see a lot of the same classes in PVP for a reason. Lazy players want lazy fixes (nerfs/buffs anything that favors them). They will also be the first to use the phrase (L2P).

 

However, with the aforementioned stated, I don't think any of the assassins (or any of the overly well performing classes.. cough, cough) will make it to live in their current PTS state. When reviewing the top talents of each assassin tree, I noticed that there are skills that can be tweaked here and there to create parity with other dps/tank specs.

 

Madness for instance, could just have a hard boost to DoTs and their problem is fixed. Maybe a small amount of force regeneration from deathmarks would help too; however, with the removal of unearthed knowledge and the use for shock.... we'll see.

 

Deception has their assassinate boost at the end of their tree and any modification they want to do with discharge to bring them back in line.

 

Darkness can have their DC live recovery boosted to assist them in the tanking department.... However, this isn't so great when getting mobbed by 4 enemies at once.

 

We'll see.... But all the players feeling good about their class on PTS better be prepared that things may change in a south direction. We will see.

Dear god or any divine creature of any religion, I want this guy to be right.

Finally got to test now that bolster is fixed.

For dps...I just hate Deception now, period. Full Balance is meh....this is what worked best for me http://pts.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/sith-assassin/222/ EDIT: Link is to a blank skill tree for whatever reason. It's basically the old hybrid of 0/18/28. I went all the way up to creeping death in Madness and of course got Duplicity in Deception.

When testing tank hybrid, I could definitely tell a difference in our 20% armor decrease and biggest of all was the dps loss. No duplicity or chain shock just sucks. Overall damage on tank seemed to be lackluster as well...then of course the loss of instant whirlwind. Honestly I didn't gain a whole lot from phase walk, people are definitely blowing that out of proportion.

Now I can for sure say I am not in the slightest liking any changes to our class.

Finally got to test now that bolster is fixed.

 

For dps...I just hate Deception now, period. Full Balance is meh....this is what worked best for me http://pts.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/sith-assassin/222/

 

 

When testing tank hybrid, I could definitely tell a difference in our 20% armor decrease and biggest of all was the dps loss. No duplicity or chain shock just sucks. Overall damage on tank seemed to be lackluster as well...then of course the loss of instant whirlwind. Honestly I didn't gain a whole lot from phase walk, people are definitely blowing that out of proportion.

 

 

Now I can for sure say I am not in the slightest liking any changes to our class.

I also felt the 20% armour difference. It does make a difference, even if we scaled to the new level, as other classes will also scale, but they didn't get a 20% nerf so far as I know...

With my own build, I loose the 30% buff to maul, and a further 15% to chain shock chances. It remains to be seen how well the shielding works. Though my shield that I've been using is DPSed out as well, so I get a maximum of 35% shield chance. So at this point it's to test if the survivability is proportional to the DPS loss.

Which means we'll probably end up having longer fights...

Finally got to test now that bolster is fixed.

 

For dps...I just hate Deception now, period. Full Balance is meh....this is what worked best for me http://pts.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/sith-assassin/222/ EDIT: Link is to a blank skill tree for whatever reason. It's basically the old hybrid of 0/18/28. I went all the way up to creeping death in Madness and of course got Duplicity in Deception.

 

 

When testing tank hybrid, I could definitely tell a difference in our 20% armor decrease and biggest of all was the dps loss. No duplicity or chain shock just sucks. Overall damage on tank seemed to be lackluster as well...then of course the loss of instant whirlwind. Honestly I didn't gain a whole lot from phase walk, people are definitely blowing that out of proportion.

 

 

Now I can for sure say I am not in the slightest liking any changes to our class.

I bet you did the same mistake I did with the link, look at the bottom of the page, the perma link to the build is there.

I bet you did the same mistake I did with the link, look at the bottom of the page, the perma link to the build is there.

Ah yes, thank you.

http://pts.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/sith-assassin/222/?build=000000000000000000000000000000000322030121100030000000000000000003220302012200210122030000000000&ver=20

This just plays out like standard madness for the most part except you are trading your top line and creeping terror for Duplicity, and Darkswell. Pretty much the same thing you can currently get on live though.

Overall...it's still not really as good as other dps classes but it is IMO, the most viable current dps option for regular PVP.

Or you could optionally trade Creeping Death for Fade and Low Slash but that is personal preference. http://pts.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/sith-assassin/222/?build=000000000000000000000000000000000322030121102030001000000000000003220302012200210122000000000000&ver=20

I really dont know what to add, you guys are all making valid points that I whole heartedly agree with especially considering how irked I am about them making hybrids completely shunned. Your pvp specs seem to be in order but I have seen nothing about PvE wise. This is the build I have constructed from the new trees trying to mimic something like the mad maul build.

http://pts.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/sith-assassin/222/?build=002200000000000000000000000000000320230021110020000000000000000003022302012220010122000000000000&ver=20

I always say Thrashing Blades and Charge Mastery are a must in any build, it just makes since. Extra Crit%, armor pen, and damage reduction. Why wouldn't you want any of that in any of your builds regardless of what spec you are.

What about:

http://pts.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/sith-assassin/222/?build=022302201120023002100000000000000322030021112030001000000000000002000000000000000000000000000000&ver=20

?

What about:

 

http://pts.swtor-spy.com/skill-tree-calculator/sith-assassin/222/?build=022302201120023002100000000000000322030021112030001000000000000002000000000000000000000000000000&ver=20

 

?

I've been playing a very similar temp, but 23/23 and I've yet to be out dpsed by anyone but a PT/Sniper, a sorc outdid me in one game, but its doing more than well enough.

I've been playing a very similar temp, but 23/23 and I've yet to be out dpsed by anyone but a PT/Sniper, a sorc outdid me in one game, but its doing more than well enough.

I almost find it hard to believe you hung in that closely. Regardless of the dps spec our burst is now terrible and survivability dropped. I was running 19/27 and damage and survivability was just meh. Full infil, I was getting crushed by snipers. Set up on force breach was unbearable. If it weren't for low slash or whatever you assasins call it proc'ing SS, that spec would be completely worthless. All infil is good for right now is the novelty of getting the occasional 9k crit.

....keeping my finger on that unsub button...

I almost find it hard to believe you hung in that closely. Regardless of the dps spec our burst is now terrible and survivability dropped. I was running 19/27 and damage and survivability was just meh. Full infil, I was getting crushed by snipers. Set up on force breach was unbearable. If it weren't for low slash or whatever you assasins call it proc'ing SS, that spec would be completely worthless. All infil is good for right now is the novelty of getting the occasional 9k crit.

 

....keeping my finger on that unsub button...

I wasn't coming near the 1mill+ that people are regularly claiming in pug warzones, but 450-550k average, top dps in those games was around 850K, and that was a PT topping everyone else by 150K. I'm not topping the table, but I'm doing well enough to feel I conributed quite a bit, usually in the top 4 for straight dps.

I'm not saying the temp is gonna outdps those, because I don't think it can, but I think it can do a lot more than just hold its own 1v1. I've taken out a couple of snipers 1v1, full tank setups are the only one ive been repeatedly beaten by. Although I haven't played enough warzones yet to know if its a trend or just good luck.

Burst dps? no, not like it is on live, but in general the ttk is a lot longer, I'm playing it in dark charge with 23/23/0, I'm constantly proccing either energized shock or duplicity maul, and just enough energy that I'm only finding myself running low after a minute or two of nonstop fighting. Also, having darkswell & overcharge saber to go along with shroud/deflection helps a lot, I'm also using dark ward constantly, even though in dps(all power, no crit) gear the change/absorbtion is low, now theres 15charges its more than worth keeping up. Not on its own sure, but with 4 defensive cooldowns to be popping, it all adds up. It seems decent 1v1, but the strength lies in smallish fights, 3v3/4v4 is where I seem to really hurt, just enough mitigation to not drop drop straight away and be worth nuking first, and enough dps that I cant be ignored.

Yes my sin on live kills people a lot faster, and I think is stronger 1v1, but by no means are we as far out of the fight as people are saying, its early days yet, and probably more balance changes to come. That and hopefully I can fight some of the people that are getting the scores/dmg in seeing on the forums but have yet to see ingame