I once saw a game were everyone agreed everything was totally fair and no one ever accused the other "side" that it was "their gear," "their class," "their healers," or "They hack."

 

-.- really, I swear!

 

That being said, PuG's beat premades or give them a rough time plenty... they also get stomped too. The issue isn't premades, its:

 

1. Faction Imbalance.

2. Gear Imbalance.

3. Composition Imbalance.

 

The only thing "premade" related is skill imbalance. (Ie. Better Players tend to gravitate into grouping because it's one of the best ways to be more competitive and it is the next step in PvP)

 

I agree with the faction imbalance. Obviously the imperials attract more people but there are great players who play republic but just not as many which sucks. Gear imbalance is getting fixed with a mega reduction in how fast and easy WH will be obtainable (YAH!) and composition, I have already seen improvements in this thanks to free respecs with field respec as I will always switch to tank or hybrid if my team has to many deeps.

Edited November 30, 2012 by cycao

I see you've not done too many flashpoints via the gf, otherwise you would know that you CANNOT queue for a random fp or operation with less than 3 people or with 3 dps. Since you cannot enter a warzone outside the PvP queue, what you can do outside the PvE group finder cannot be compared to the PvP group finder.

 

When you examine the queue however, you'll see, that even if you're queuing as a random PuG, you have a 100% chance of ending up with a tank and a healer, which is more than most PvP PuG groups can say. It doesn't guarantee victory (nor should it) but at least you won't be crippled by the lack of a healer if you're queueing for random PvE as I have been lots of times when I queued for random PvP.

 

So is pugging in PvE a viable option to win? Very much so, in fact I do like 3 random hard modes each day for BH comms.

 

Is pugging in PvP a viable and reliable option to win? No, otherwise I won't be typing this.

 

See the difference?

 

=P What I do see, is that the system to make PuG PvE viable is not... is not... PuG-only versions of flashpoints, it's proper group matching.

 

I really don't get it why you call PuGs a weaker form of PvP, when if anything PuGs have to fight a lot harder than premades to win, especially if they lack critical players like healers. The guy in the premade team that starts dancing when 2 people are beating on him because his 2 pocket healers will keep him alive in any situation surely works very hard for his commendations. And who said anything about rewards? I feel like it's just an excuse to have cannon fodder for you to slaughter. After all, premaders wouldn't want to lose their easy commendations, wouldn't they?

 

Okay, throw out PuG vs. Premade for a moment and focus on PuG vs. PuG, and Premade Vs. Premade. In Premade vs. Premade, it is assumed you are supported. Your enemy will have to deal with tanks tanking, healers healing, cross heals, dps focus firing, coordinated CC, and more than likely communication between the enemy (so no solo'ing a guard cause he never called).

 

PuG vs. PuG, none of that is guaranteed. Your opponents will often not be supported, may not communicate, may not be giving or following directions, etc... Thus one is a harder, tougher form of pvp and one is not.

 

And yes... Premade Vs. PuG is almost always a lower form of pvp than even PuG vs. PuG. While I don't think the criteria for matchmaking should be Group vs. Solo (I favor either a gear criteria, or some kind of win/lose ratio), I'd even agree that if -somehow- the group finder matched 2 premades to 8 pugs, the premades should be given a lesser amount of comms for victory. (say 100-120 instead of 140?)

 

By special treatmeant you mean that they shouldn't expect to face another team whose composition is based on an RNG roll, when theirs is based on an RNG roll as well? Since when is calling for basic balance special treatment? If what determines whether or not you have a healer or a tank is a random number, I think it's only fair to expect the same of the enemy team. We should get multiple playgrounds, based on team composition, with an option to face premade teams, so that people who want that can backfill in premade matches.

 

You can adjust the rewards however you want but the simple fact remains: just by forming a group before the queue, a team will have an advantage that the other team can never match, therefore it is not fair in any sense of the word to have the 2 groups fight against each other. I cannot simplify it more than that.

 

RNG is the complete lack of balance. Even if both sides are decided by RNG, faction imbalance will skew the "fairness" as will a number of other factors. Special treatment refers to the belief that you should be able to win by abstaining from using a fairly basic tool... /invite.

 

I'll believe it when I see it. It will make a good addition to the 3rd expansion pack.

 

I don't know what to say to that, if it was a joke or something =P.

 

I don't know where you live, but a friend of mine who was part of the Youth Olympics running team was not allowed to compete in the local running competition sponsored by Samsung since it was hosted only to amateurs and not professionals. Where I live professional sportsmen are definitely not allowed to run against Average Fat Joe from next door, because they have regional, national and international tournaments and championships to take part in.

 

=P so a specificly amatuer competition put on by samsung is equal to a pick up game at your local park, where four professional people show up and decide to play? (Pro's never go to local parks, -of course-). See... Warzones are more like you local park that Samsungs official small town amatuer youth olypmics.

this thread----->>>>>>>>> http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=564600

So here we go

1 group make up of a premade is random friends (since you think its always 4 man groups ill play this game)

a 4 dps

b 3 dps 1 tank

c 3 dps 1 healer

d 2 dps 2 tanks

e 2 dps 2 healer

f 2 dps 1 heal 1 tank

g 1 dps 2 healer 1tank

h 1 dps 1 heal 2 tanks

I 4 healer

j 3 healer 1 tank

k 2 healer 2 tanks

L 1 healer 3 tanks

m 4 tanks

2 Now anyone of these groups has a HUGE disadvantage when paired with 4 random pugs

examples (ill go with what you think is common)

a 2 healer (since u like to say cross healing) 1 dps 1 tank premade group now the pugs are 2 healer 1 dps and 1 tank .......thats 4 healer 2 tanks 2 dps pretty weak group what you really wanted from the pug was 1 tank 3 dps or even 4 dps

 

b 2 healer 2 dps premade pug group 3 tanks 1 healer......not a very good combo having 3 heal 3 tanks

 

I can go on and on about this but i think you get the point ... reg wzs are like a box of chocolate you never know what your gonna get

 

3 All premades are good.... this is so far from the truth....not really even gonna talk about it

4 All premades are geared....once again....you fail....Ill play along tho

a this now leaves 4 players that might all be in recruit gear (meaning half the team is easy pickings)

b since qs are random your team could be all full wh players or even half....teams are now even

 

5 mumble and vent ( yes this is an advantage but not that big ) you still have 4 people not on it so if you have to call inco well still got to type it....but yes going for CC caps it helps (until that guy not in mumble comes over and screws it up)

 

What you are really crying about!!!!!

group comp ( hate to tell you but I still cry when going into wz with a full premade and looking at the other 4 players that will be with me )

 

In short non ranked pvp or reg wz are not for competition its for fun if you are not having fun stop pvping or make a group..... it is alot more fun with a group of friends but you do not have to (its a choice)

Edited November 30, 2012 by TheBigBee

I agree with the faction imbalance. Obviously the imperials attract more people but there are great players who play republic but just not as many which sucks. Gear imbalance is getting fixed with a mega reduction in how fast and easy WH will be obtainable (YAH!) and composition, I have already seen improvements in this thanks to free respecs with field respec as I will always switch to tank or hybrid if my team has to many deeps.

 

ok, Ive been up for 48 hours now, so please (and I mean this, not being sarcastic) forgive me if I misread this. But how is making WH gear harder to obtain NOW going to decrease the Gear Gap? The people who have the gear will continue to have the gear, and those that dont will have an even harder time catching up. This is one of the things that are discouraging players from PvP as it is. Again, if I misunderstood what you were saying, I am truly sorry, and please correct me, but that is how I read it and my sleep deprived mind just frizzed.

Ok, as someone who doesn't like the idea of premades being able to queue up against solo, I will say that Matchmaking DOES make about the most sense to fix this problem. As many have stated, if you break up the premades from queuing altogether there is nothing stopping those players from queuing solo just to grief on their own. However, instituting a system where you are grouped with and against people with similar gear is more then likely going to result in you getting queued with people of similar skill as well. At the very least it will give the players who keep getting labled as "baddies" (whether because they actually are bad or just have to learn) a softer curve in the learning process. Thus making WZs less fusterating, and ensuring a likely more enjoyable experience. This in turn will help them improve (as they will face greater and greater opponents as their gear increases) and will likely keep them returning for more. Just a thought...

ok, Ive been up for 48 hours now, so please (and I mean this, not being sarcastic) forgive me if I misread this. But how is making WH gear harder to obtain NOW going to decrease the Gear Gap? The people who have the gear will continue to have the gear, and those that dont will have an even harder time catching up. This is one of the things that are discouraging players from PvP as it is. Again, if I misunderstood what you were saying, I am truly sorry, and please correct me, but that is how I read it and my sleep deprived mind just frizzed.

 

WH is actually a lot easier to obtain now that it doesn't need rated comms. I guess you misread it.

Alright, it's a little bad but...

 

=P Called it!

 

Live Stream Q&A.

 

Namely this part here.

 

Q: Any plans to have separate Warzones for non-elite level 50 players?

 

Hickman: I don't think so.

 

Schubert: Not a true separation, but we hope to improve the match making system in the future. We also want to improve the bootstrap gear a new max level players receives so skill becomes more important than gear. Right now, gear is very important in PvP.

 

I still think we need Cross server queue's, but elimination of gear gap and proper matchmaking is the best step!

 

Okay, I'm done being bad for now.

Schubert: Not a true separation, but we hope to improve the match making system in the future. .

 

Thank you Schubert for the vague answer. I hope to stay subscribed in the future but i must admit, my hope is dwindling.

 

Premades vs PUGS is simply an unacceptable abomination IMO.

 

So to sum up: No seperation of queues, nor cross-server is coming. Deal with it in your own way.

Edited December 1, 2012 by Veniras

Alright, it's a little bad but...

 

=P Called it!

 

Live Stream Q&A.

 

Namely this part here.

 

 

 

I still think we need Cross server queue's, but elimination of gear gap and proper matchmaking is the best step!

 

Okay, I'm done being bad for now.

 

In the future far, far away.

Ya I'm glad they are saying it will be through matchmaking and making gear matter less. Split q systems are actually the easiest to game. What you do is you get a whole bunch of your friends in vent and get them to q at the same time. Some will get in a different wz and if it is a training scenario then maybe some even on the other team but you can often get even more than 4 people on a team this way in previous games.

 

With a good matchmaking system if there are multiple premades q'n up within 5-10mins of eachother then they will be on different teams most of the time instead of in different wzs.

Ya I'm glad they are saying it will be through matchmaking and making gear matter less.

 

So what would be the point of playing if you didn't have better gear to work toward?

So what would be the point of playing if you didn't have better gear to work toward?

 

the point of playing PVP is because its fun and you like PVP. if you dont like pvp, then you dont even need the gear to begin with. but, you will have better gear to work towards. only the gap between dif levels of gear will be much less.

So what would be the point of playing if you didn't have better gear to work toward?

 

Fun?

 

You realize League of Legends, DOTA, CoD, Battlefield, etc.... all have millions and millions of players without gear grinds- because people find the games fun and the pvp balanced.

 

Real pvpers will stay for fun pvp- it's the people who get full gear then quit that aren't going to stay regardless.

Thank you Schubert for the vague answer. I hope to stay subscribed in the future but i must admit, my hope is dwindling.

 

Premades vs PUGS is simply an unacceptable abomination IMO.

 

So to sum up: No seperation of queues, nor cross-server is coming. Deal with it in your own way.

 

=P Matchmaking will actually target the real issue, which is gaps in skill level. while eliminating the gear gap also removes 1 of the main "complaints" about premades.

 

4 okay premaders vs. 4 okay pugs in the exact same gear is a pretty even match. Likewise, 4 exceptional premaders vs. 4 exceptional pugs in the same gear is also an even match.

 

The only -real- difference would be if the premaders were using voice chat, which I would hope is BW's next "plan".

 

In the future far, far away.

 

Meh... Gear gap gone in 1-2 weeks.

 

Matchmaking in 2-3 months. It's -really- not that long, as the gear gap being gone is going to be a giant leap towards equality. My only hope is Solo-centric people will step up their own game now that gear won't be such an obstical. =P can't tell me a PvP guild won't take them now unless they have EWH.

 

Ya I'm glad they are saying it will be through matchmaking and making gear matter less. Split q systems are actually the easiest to game. What you do is you get a whole bunch of your friends in vent and get them to q at the same time. Some will get in a different wz and if it is a training scenario then maybe some even on the other team but you can often get even more than 4 people on a team this way in previous games.

 

With a good matchmaking system if there are multiple premades q'n up within 5-10mins of eachother then they will be on different teams most of the time instead of in different wzs.

 

Pretty much agreed Raika. Can't wait for match making. =P also to finally bring my champion merc out of retirement in 1.6, since she'll be WH geared in a week.

Hi again!

 

Can anyone answer my question fast please?

 

I've been reading that you can get Ranked Commendations from daily PvP when you are L40+ Valor rank? I am Valor L44 at the moment and just completed the daily PvP where I shall play 2 warzones, When I completed it I still only got to choose from the 4 different green boxes as rewards.

 

Is this the wrong daily, or I've been reading false things?

 

// Thanks

So what would be the point of playing if you didn't have better gear to work toward?

 

People with mentality like yours should stop playing MMOs.

Hi again!

 

Can anyone answer my question fast please?

 

I've been reading that you can get Ranked Commendations from daily PvP when you are L40+ Valor rank? I am Valor L44 at the moment and just completed the daily PvP where I shall play 2 warzones, When I completed it I still only got to choose from the 4 different green boxes as rewards.

 

Is this the wrong daily, or I've been reading false things?

 

// Thanks

 

You can buy ranked comms with normal wz comms when valor is 40, you can get ranked comms from dailies only at level 50.

lol doom. Ya merc is actually pretty good when you have good gear. That is one reason why it was (imo) the 2nd best lowbie pvp class. Of course that isn't the only reason merc is weaker than some other classes but that is a big one.

 

Best example is when you are fighting a class with a leap. When you are lesser geared you can hit him with full stacks before he notices you and he can still have a good chance to kill you. However, once you are geared then you will be pretty close to dropping him already by that point since you now have a couple instants ready.

You can buy ranked comms with normal wz comms when valor is 40, you can get ranked comms from dailies only at level 50.

 

I am L50 and still only got to choose from those green boxes :/

 

EDIT: Found the solution to my problem: Needed to do a normal quest named Conquest of War or something, then I got a new daily and weekly PvP quest.

Edited December 2, 2012 by FozyX

I agree with the OP, been getting rolled by the same pvp guild premades most of the afternoon. We desperatly need cross server pvp ques and seperation of premades and solo ques.

I agree with the OP, been getting rolled by the same pvp guild premades most of the afternoon. We desperatly need cross server pvp ques and seperation of premades and solo ques.

 

Not coming as stated by devs.

Not coming as stated by devs.

 

mind linking that statment?

Well what they have said they are going to do is make gear matter a lot less (seems true with how 1.6 is shaping up) and also work on their premade matching system. Even without cross server a good premade matching system would help out a whole lot during most of the day so IF!! they do it right then I think most people will be a lot happier.

Well what they have said they are going to do is make gear matter a lot less (seems true with how 1.6 is shaping up) and also work on their premade matching system. Even without cross server a good premade matching system would help out a whole lot during most of the day so IF!! they do it right then I think most people will be a lot happier.

 

makes sense and fully support the effort, tho in the mean time they will make allot of folks unhappy and bleed some subs in the process of waiting for such a change.

Edited December 2, 2012 by DarthSabreth