PVE: As a DPS this AC has no spot on raids to clear NiM or even HM S&V.

Deception and Madness can't to do the numbers that marauder/sniper/mercenary do.

It's the worst tank atm, spiky as hell, no mitigation compared to PT/Vanguard and Jugg/Guardian. As a healer I can't waste a GCD healing other targets, my tank will lose 50%HP in 2sec.

PVP:

Deception is very nice, you can burst damage like a truck, the changes made deception a nightmare for healers.

Madness is easily cleansed and healed.

Tank assassin in PVP is viable because of the team utility, pull, speed, sap etc.

Powertech/Vanguard and Assassin/Shadow are the worst DPS atm, but at least PT/Van they're the best tank.

Thoughts?

no mitigation compared to PT/Vanguard and Jugg/Guardian.

Mitigation is the *one* thing Shadows do the best right now. It's rendered completely redundant by the absurd level of spikiness, but it's misleading to claim that Shadows don't have the absolute best mean mitigation.

PVE: As a DPS this AC has no spot on raids to clear NiM or even HM S&V.

Deception and Madness can't to do the numbers that marauder/sniper/mercenary do.

It's the worst tank atm, spiky as hell, no mitigation compared to PT/Vanguard and Jugg/Guardian. As a healer I can't waste a GCD healing other targets, my tank will lose 50%HP in 2sec.

 

PVP:

Deception is very nice, you can burst damage like a truck, the changes made deception a nightmare for healers.

Madness is easily cleansed and healed.

Tank assassin in PVP is viable because of the team utility, pull, speed, sap etc.

 

Powertech/Vanguard and Assassin/Shadow are the worst DPS atm, but at least PT/Van they're the best tank.

 

Thoughts?

PvP wise it's fine. Deception's damage is on par, with some massive burst. But PvE wise, it's very lacking, in both departments.

PVE: As a DPS this AC has no spot on raids to clear NiM or even HM S&V.

Deception and Madness can't to do the numbers that marauder/sniper/mercenary do.

It's the worst tank atm, spiky as hell, no mitigation compared to PT/Vanguard and Jugg/Guardian. As a healer I can't waste a GCD healing other targets, my tank will lose 50%HP in 2sec.

PVP:

Deception is very nice, you can burst damage like a truck, the changes made deception a nightmare for healers.

Madness is easily cleansed and healed.

Tank assassin in PVP is viable because of the team utility, pull, speed, sap etc.

 

Powertech/Vanguard and Assassin/Shadow are the worst DPS atm, but at least PT/Van they're the best tank.

 

Thoughts?

Like Kitru said, the mitigation is great, the spikiness is not. Selfhealing, which is not an insignificant part of Shadow tanks's survivability, does not scale with damage received, which results in Shadow tanks being slightly overtuned for regular content, and slightly undertuned for Nightmare content.

Wish Battle Readiness had a shorter cooldown >_<

Zero PvP complaints on my (primarily Kinetic) Shadow and almost exclusively Deception Sin. Tankasins have an absolutely amazing set of tactical tools available. Deception is 1v1 king. Ideal for solo node caps.

Granted, I don't PvE on my Shadow/Sin a whole lot, but I can understand how aggravating can this "class limbo" be if that's your main character. BW will come around. They have to.

They need some work for pve but only to dps as a tank there is nothing wrong with them shadow can tank easy everything plus he does more damage than guardian. But PvP I would say they need nerf it make me lough what I can do in pvp with shadow its like playing godlike. I can interrupt indefinitely while I’m in stealth. I can kill 1vs1 while my opponent its cc and cannot even defend himself. I can do 500k damage and 500k protection in one WZ now try to play jugger tank you will never pull more than 200k damage they only good in protection healers. So I would say from my experience playing jugger and shadow as tanks 2 of them are fine for PvE for PvP shadow need nerf.

Damage will be hard for BW to fix as in PvE shadow dps lacks but in PvP they overpower due to their stealth and possibility to cc target while they kill it if I have now more dps in pvp OMG I could cc and kill even faster while my target cannot defend himself. This would be just crazy.

PVE: As a DPS this AC has no spot on raids to clear NiM or even HM S&V.

Bullcrap.

People saying this are simply pulling out stuff from their arses.

My guild is NOWHERE near hardcore.

We killed the first boss in TFB NiM on the FIRST try, with a shadow dps. And a very mediocre commando dps, barely breaking 2400 dps on a dummy (that would be me).

Sure maybe we won't kill the DG right now, but general consensus is that they're overtuned anyway.

S&V Hm is a WALK IN THE PARK, the only moderately difficult fight is the last one, and still we beat it with no problem with that shadow dps regularly in our group and I can assure you that he's not getting carried, if anything it's the opposite.

Kitru has already touched the (real) issues shadow tanks have but let's get this out of the way: SWTOR is NOT a difficult game, PVE wise. Aside from hiccups like the DG overtuning and current shadow situation, the content is doable with much worse gear and suboptimal compositions and even suboptimal personal dps/mitigation/healing output than the best you can achieve.

Shadow may or may not be the "worst ac". It's still truly and completely IRRELEVANT and people that make statements like the one quoted above should have the right of speech removed from the forums. Yes I'm pissed (as much as you can get pissed by writing a long and elaborate post on a forum), because that kind of attitude ruins games for *everybody* and also it's the same kind of thinking and behaving that creates FOTM classes.

So, drop it. I have already proven that statement wrong. I'm sure plenty of other people can do the same.

LoL u mad bro?

Shadow / assassin is the worst DPS class in the game as far as PVE goes. You may clear NiM content with 4 shadow DPS however you'd have much easier time doing so with other (= better classes).

LoL u mad bro?

 

Shadow / assassin is the worst DPS class in the game as far as PVE goes. You may clear NiM content with 4 shadow DPS however you'd have much easier time doing so with other (= better classes).

You may want to re read my post. It may or may not be the worst dps class. Given the fact that you can clear the hardest tier of content with it, it makes the question irrelevant.

The problem arises when people like the OP start saying stuff like "you shouldn't bring one EVEREVEREVER". This ostracizes players, creates a FALSE idea about how the game works and generates a wholly unhealthy environment for what is a game.

Again, just to make it even clearer for you: I'm not saying ANYTHING about whether shadow is best/worst. I'm saying that it's stupid, close minded and ignorant to make that kind of statement.

LoL u mad bro?

 

Shadow / assassin is the worst DPS class in the game as far as PVE goes. You may clear NiM content with 4 shadow DPS however you'd have much easier time doing so with other (= better classes).

Our main tank is a shadow, and we have an infiltration shadow dps on most raids (that would be me), and we have not seen issues due to lack of dps.

granted, we have not tried TFB NiM yet, but in fair fights (that is the ones where there are no AoEable mobs) i stay competitive with our other dps (according to mox), maybe except for the sentinel (but he lacks the saps, ninja-res and ability to step in temporarily when tank dies).

all in all, infiltration shadows might not be the best class dps wise, but the "support" abilities make up for it IMHO, and it certainly is fun to play!

Our main tank is a shadow, and we have an infiltration shadow dps on most raids (that would be me), and we have not seen issues due to lack of dps.

granted, we have not tried TFB NiM yet, but in fair fights (that is the ones where there are no AoEable mobs) i stay competitive with our other dps (according to mox), maybe except for the sentinel (but he lacks the saps, ninja-res and ability to step in temporarily when tank dies).

 

all in all, infiltration shadows might not be the best class dps wise, but the "support" abilities make up for it IMHO, and it certainly is fun to play!

Eh, which raid-relevant support skills does Infiltration have? Nerve Whacking doesn't apply if the target isn't stunned, does it?

So slightly less DPS and a lot more survivability as well as stealth res, and oh crap the tanks gone down where with minimal healing you can easily survive with minimal healing long enough for the tank to be rezed and healed before they jump back into the fray as well as an extra taunt if needed are not worth bringing along are they If the content can be cleared and you are pulling your weight then there is NO reason not to bring along a sin/shadow.

Dont get me wrong would love more DPS which class wouldn't

So slightly less DPS and a lot more survivability as well as stealth res, and oh crap the tanks gone down where with minimal healing you can easily survive with minimal healing long enough for the tank to be rezed and healed before they jump back into the fray as well as an extra taunt if needed are not worth bringing along are they If the content can be cleared and you are pulling your weight then there is NO reason not to bring along a sin/shadow.

 

Dont get me wrong would love more DPS which class wouldn't

Jugg can do that as well and bring more dps and utility to boot!

Again I do not claim that having an assassin / shadow dps in your ops team is auto wipe, however there are many (7 to be precise) better options.

Jugg can do that as well and bring more dps and utility to boot!

 

Again I do not claim that having an assassin / shadow dps in your ops team is auto wipe, however there are many (7 to be precise) better options.

If you take a look at parses, you'll realize how untrue that statement is. Player skill > class capacity 98% of the time. it's a well know fact that A: most players cannot maximize their class role perfectly, and B: most players assume they can. Which is the ideology that leads you to your statement. there aren't 7 better options. there may be 7 other AC's that have the POTENTIAL of possibly having more DPS, but in most situations, a raid leader really isn't making a choice from a perfectly optimized group of AC's. he's pulling from a small group of people that showed up for his raid.

So all the bantering about "uselesness" of a class is not only unwarranted, but it's childish. Or motivated by a PvP player who wants EZ mode kills, so he's overstating the uselessness of his class to get buffs he wants.

As long as a class can meet the DPS thresholds, it's not really an AC issue. there will always be an AC at the bottom, and an AC at the top. and most players skill will probably put them all smack dab in the middle. if the AC suffers from lower DPS, then a change is warranted. but the uselessness charge can go. if the AC is useless, then there are dozens of guilds every week that finish NM Ops with useless classes. doesn't say much for the game design, does it? or perhaps Bio had that in mind...

Jugg can do that as well and bring more dps and utility to boot!

 

Again I do not claim that having an assassin / shadow dps in your ops team is auto wipe, however there are many (7 to be precise) better options.

Trying to figure out what utility Guard/Jugg DPS has that is better than stealth rez.

Trying to figure out what utility Guard/Jugg DPS has that is better than stealth rez.

Guardianship. Stealth rez on a tank is less useful than on a healer or DPS because tanks generally have very little time to run over to a corpse and rez them (not to mention spend the 10 secs to rez the person). Guardianship is simply *disgustingly good* for any form of raid damage.

Guardianship. Stealth rez on a tank is less useful than on a healer or DPS because tanks generally have very little time to run over to a corpse and rez them (not to mention spend the 10 secs to rez the person). Guardianship is simply *disgustingly good* for any form of raid damage.

To be fair he said Guard/Jugg "DPS". Any dps that specs high enough into the defense tree to get guardianship is doing it wrong.

To be fair he said Guard/Jugg "DPS". Any dps that specs high enough into the defense tree to get guardianship is doing it wrong.

Derp. My bad on that (too busy dealing with the masses of Guardian tanks complaining that stealth rez on a Shadow tank is *teh amazings*!). But, ya, there isn't really all that much utility that a Guardian DPS brings along (*maybe* Guardian Leap, but that's kinda pushing things).

Yeah for DPS stealth rez is amazing not so much for tanks i'm hoping unless it's a one tank fight that they wouldn't just drop threat and try to rez leaving the boss roaming (although I do think it would be hilarious for it to turn around and start snacking on mara's/snipers and listening to them scream for heals ) Also HTPRO that the first i've ever heard of juggs being able to stealth rez, please please tell me what ability lets them do that but i do agree there taunts are as useful as a sins and there dps is good but I don't have a clue what utility they bring in that's close to stealth rezing (my juggs only lvl 40 due to x2 exp weekends so could be wrong about that).

Wait why am I defending this we are so underrated in terms of DPS we need more a lot more

(Haven't tanked on my sin more then once so am not commenting on that part at all since anything I could throw in Kitru probably said elsewhere)

For what its worth my raid group downed NiM Dread Guards tonight with myself dpsing on my shadow in Balance spec. So to say that we have no spot in NiM OPS is just completely wrong.

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For what its worth my raid group downed NiM Dread Guards tonight with myself dpsing on my shadow in Balance spec. So to say that we have no spot in NiM OPS is just completely wrong.

 

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OP claim is going hand in hand with the question "which class is the best" by 12year olds entering the game. It's the same in every MMO really... person A claims class X has no spot in top-end content only to be shut down by said class clearing Top-End content regulary. Same old same old...

Having a sniper and Juggernaut that I raid with, our tanks are an assassin and a powertech, we haven't had an issue with worrying about the Assassin, and with the CDs they get, they have been able to stand up to all the content we've done so far.

In terms of DPS, I would have to agree that I think Assassins are on the low-end of things, looking at The 2.0 DPS list, from what has been submitted, it is clear that shadow/assassin is the lowest, with powertech being right behind them, note that the Assassin / Powertech highest parse is lower than everyone else's lowest parse.

Trying to figure out what utility Guard/Jugg DPS has that is better than stealth rez.

We have a taunt, the ability to switch to a tank form, and a bunch of defensive cooldowns for when "**** hits the fan" and you need someone to tank while someone ELSE stealth rez's.

Besides that, I play a Juggernaut and I couldn't tell you... imo each class needs one utility that makes it worth bringing.

We have a taunt, the ability to switch to a tank form, and a bunch of defensive cooldowns for when "**** hits the fan" and you need someone to tank while someone ELSE stealth rez's.

 

Besides that, I play a Juggernaut and I couldn't tell you... imo each class needs one utility that makes it worth bringing.

You do realize that a shadow has EXACTLY THE SAME utility? They have taunts, tank form and defensive cooldowns as well.

Plus stealth rez and cc

You do realize that a shadow has EXACTLY THE SAME utility? They have taunts, tank form and defensive cooldowns as well.

Guard and VG tank CDs are comparatively stronger for DPS characters than the Shadow ones (Saber Ward has the same duration and the added bonus of F/T DR, which makes it better than Deflection for short burst CD use; Reactive Shield provides 25% DR, which, on a DPS VG, is going to provide a *crapton* of survivability for a longer duration than either Deflection or Saber Ward) and Shadows are *way* more reliant upon tank gear than Guardians or VGs thanks to the massive amount of DR required, not to mentioned that it's, honestly, easier for a VG or Guardian to swap to tank stance than a Shadow: swapping Techniques for a Shadow costs 100 Force (so you have to be full and it bottoms you out) whereas, for a Guardian, it costs nothing but bottoms you out (and, with Sundering Strike and Combat Focus, you can actually spike back to all the resources you need relatively easily and quickly), and, for a VG, the only "cost" is a 1.5 sec cast time (the others still cost 1 GCD to use, so the only loss is that the VG can't be running while doing it).

Shadows bring the utility of stealth rez, but, for emergency tank swapping, Guardians and VGs definitely have Shadows beat. Of course, in my experience, emergency tank swapping is next to useless (other than eating a single attack that does a debuff, which only really happened on Firebrand).