Yog-Soluth Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 (edited) I have unsubbed from this game no threat or falsehood. Before all the rage trollers chime in please know I have absolutely had a great time time here with all the SWTORers (know its not a word but wth;)) So I will try to make this brief but I feel I need to rage a little. 2.1 yes was the last straw and funny thing is I didn't even want to play as a Cathar or really concerned with my appearance overly much. But and this will get them opposed to my viewpoint raging I was supposed to get all races with my sub and customization options. I have been playing and subscribing since the 2nd day of early access and no this entitles me to nothing but what any subscriber should have or what can be bought on the cartel market. Yet I still feel wronged somehow any other mmo I have played a new race has came with an expansion pack and was there for all everybody to use as long as they subscribed and bought the expansion. I know I know this expansion was dirt cheap compared to others but I also feel so was the content not that I didn't enjoy it. It really comes down to I feel my 15 dollar sub has decreased in such a value that I no longer want to pay for this game. the funny thing IMHO is the f2pers will go through the same thing the subbers have been feeling. They will see that there is a scheduled downtime (hope being eternal as the saying goes) and hope that Bioware is surprising us with an event or that the bug they reported is being fixed or...... etc but turns out 10 new cartel market items and a discount on 20 others. The bad thing really is that there is room for both f2pers and subbers they just haven't decided how yet. I truly hope the force is with you all and to see ya again but until then good luck and goodbye Edited May 21, 2013 by Yog-Soluth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkbadeo Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Nice story but next time jsut for consistency, could you please use alinea's? It makes it really hard to read if you dont use the enter button after a sentence. Thanks for adv and if you can please edit it a bit to make it more readable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yog-Soluth Posted May 21, 2013 Author Share Posted May 21, 2013 Lol sorry about that didn't mean to meander so long hope you have fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddballEasyEight Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 (edited) So basically you are saying you are upset because the new race was optional for all instead of forced upon everyone by being included in an expansion? Yes, yes, i see your "what am i getting for my 15$" rant as well, but thats been adressed so many times already that im not even going to bother. EDIT: Also, i always find the phrase "included free for subscribers if you bought the expansion" quote interesting... it wouldnt be free if it was part of an expansion now would it? Edited May 21, 2013 by OddballEasyEight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yog-Soluth Posted May 21, 2013 Author Share Posted May 21, 2013 So basically you are saying you are upset because the new race was optional for all instead of forced upon everyone by being included in an expansion? Yes, yes, i see your "what am i getting for my 15$" rant as well, but thats been adressed so many times already that im not even going to bother. EDIT: Also, i always find the phrase "included free for subscribers if you bought the expansion" quote interesting... it wouldnt be free if it was part of an expansion now would it? No this was not a rage quit and I honestly felt that the value of my sub was no longer worth it it. But where did you find "included free for subscribers if you bought the expansion" quote anywhere in my post> I never put words in your mouth you really shouldn't in mine. I merely felt the Cathar should have been part of the expansion not a cartel market item. Please read my post before you trash it we are allowed to differ in opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EATtheDEAD Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 You know what I agree with the OP. I've been playing mmo's since they began and I can't stand the trend f2p has brought around. The awful "expansion" which was really just a lame DLC should have had Cathar included. Bioware had been talking about Cathar for what 6 months before now? The "expansion" was 10 bucks for subbers, which is nothing if you are used to playing sub based mmo's. I can completely see why he is unsubbing from this game. Since f2p the game updates have rapidly turned into nothing but Cartel Market updates with fewer and fewer actual in game updates. Anything that costs Cartel Coins does not count as a game update. It is pretty depressing to see how this game turned out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddballEasyEight Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 (edited) No this was not a rage quit and I honestly felt that the value of my sub was no longer worth it it. But where did you find "included free for subscribers if you bought the expansion" quote anywhere in my post> I never put words in your mouth you really shouldn't in mine. I merely felt the Cathar should have been part of the expansion not a cartel market item. Please read my post before you trash it we are allowed to differ in opinion I never said you ragequit (what was that you said about putting words in other peoples mouths again?) I have unsubbed from this game no threat or falsehood. Before all the rage trollers chime in please know I have absolutely had a great time time here with all the SWTORers (know its not a word but wth;)) So I will try to make this brief but I feel I need to rage a little. 2.1 yes was the last straw and funny thing is I didn't even want to play as a Cathar or really concerned with my appearance overly much. But and this will get them opposed to my viewpoint raging I was supposed to get all races with my sub and customization options. I have been playing and subscribing since the 2nd day of early access and no this entitles me to nothing but what any subscriber should have or what can be bought on the cartel market. Yet I still feel wronged somehow any other mmo I have played a new race has came with an expansion pack and was there for all everybody to use as long as they subscribed and bought the expansion. I know I know this expansion was dirt cheap compared to others but I also feel so was the content not that I didn't enjoy it. It really comes down to I feel my 15 dollar sub has decreased in such a value that I no longer want to pay for this game. the funny thing IMHO is the f2pers will go through the same thing the subbers have been feeling. They will see that there is a scheduled downtime (hope being eternal as the saying goes) and hope that Bioware is surprising us with an event or that the bug they reported is being fixed or...... etc but turns out 10 new cartel market items and a discount on 20 others. The bad thing really is that there is room for both f2pers and subbers they just haven't decided how yet. I truly hope the force is with you all and to see ya again but until then good luck and goodbye Highlighted the part where you said that. Sure, not in those exact words, but its the jist of what you said. Having it included in an expansion would mean you would pay for it even if you didnt want it (the new race that is). Because the value of the race would be included in the pricing of the expansion. This way you can decide if you want it or not and you dont have to buy the expansion to get it. Or indeed you dont have to pay for it if you dont want it but just want the expansion. Edited May 21, 2013 by OddballEasyEight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkWyndre Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 EDIT: Also, i always find the phrase "included free for subscribers if you bought the expansion" quote interesting... it wouldnt be free if it was part of an expansion now would it? I love word lawyers. Let me fix what the OP was trying to say so that you can't word lawyer it and pretend like you're the smartest tool in the room. "included at no additional charge for subscribers so long as they purchased the expansion" Oh my ... the obvious intended meaning of the OP ... it was so difficult for me to discern. What ever will I do now that I can't manipulate it by word lawyering into saying something the OP didn't intend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomyne Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 We were never promised all future content for free. We were promised all current content as part of our sub as of F2P launching and that's what we got. I don't like it either but Bioware has kept their word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malastare Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 To sum up: OP is angry that there are new optional features and he already spent all of his subscriber-grant on gambling boxes. OP is upset that the expansion was $10 without a new race. He would have preferred it to be $15 and with a new race. Because... less choice is better, I guess. OP feels that subscribers should be given everything (every new armor, every new mount, every crystal, every toy, every dye) for no additional cost. It should just be given to them. They should also be given a 'Sorry' email when the game economy falls apart. Alternatively: OP feels that subscribers should get all the "cool" stuff. And which stuff is "cool" is completely agreed upon. Everyone's opinions are completely in agreement. ...If only there were a system to allow subscribers to pick and choose what extra stuff they wanted for free. Then people who really wanted to just wear black 24x7 could buy black robes and share them to all of their characters. Others could buy new mounts. People who didn't like the Cathar wouldn't have to have them, and could get other stuff they liked better instead. Huh. If only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkWyndre Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 We were never promised all future content for free. We were promised all current content as part of our sub as of F2P launching and that's what we got. I don't like it either but Bioware has kept their word. I love fanboys, especially of the Mangina type. You do realize that Bioware reps are on record apologizing for the marketing schpiel being poorly worded and not indicative of what has actually transpired, right? They already admitted to misleading (at best) and/or lying (at worst). But keep on white knighting to their defense. They very much need people who blindly defend them on the forums. Wait ... no ... no they don't. http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/ You, sir, are an unhelpful fanboy. Read it, learn it, love it. Stop being an unhelpful fanboy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alavastre Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Paragraphs are your friends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordspyder Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 ...If only there were a system to allow subscribers to pick and choose what extra stuff they wanted for free. Then people who really wanted to just wear black 24x7 could buy black robes and share them to all of their characters. Others could buy new mounts. People who didn't like the Cathar wouldn't have to have them, and could get other stuff they liked better instead. Huh. If only. man, that sounds like an awesome system, why don't they implement that? oh, wait.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vhaegrant Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 To sum up: OP is angry that there are new optional features and he already spent all of his subscriber-grant on gambling boxes. OP is upset that the expansion was $10 without a new race. He would have preferred it to be $15 and with a new race. Because... less choice is better, I guess. OP feels that subscribers should be given everything (every new armor, every new mount, every crystal, every toy, every dye) for no additional cost. It should just be given to them. They should also be given a 'Sorry' email when the game economy falls apart. Alternatively: OP feels that subscribers should get all the "cool" stuff. And which stuff is "cool" is completely agreed upon. Everyone's opinions are completely in agreement. ...If only there were a system to allow subscribers to pick and choose what extra stuff they wanted for free. Then people who really wanted to just wear black 24x7 could buy black robes and share them to all of their characters. Others could buy new mounts. People who didn't like the Cathar wouldn't have to have them, and could get other stuff they liked better instead. Huh. If only. Malastare I couldn't agree with you more Although I feel you may be too subtle I've had 5,000 cartel coins sat waiting to be spent that had accumulated from my subscription. Nothing from 2.1 has cost me an extra penny other than my subscription. I've unlocked a dozen armour collections a hair pack, eye colour and new race, all within my subscription allotment. Since F2P launched I have used the CC to unlock very costly ingame features such as ship GTN terminal, rocket boots and extra account wide inventory/bank slots. Only ever purchased two space pirate packs, and having seen what the rewards were decided this was not a good return on investment. All future purchases were with in game credits off the GTN or for the specific items I wanted again off the GTN. The CM one shot, one character armours have never been a serious choice for cc expenditure for me, but I really like the option to unlock a collection for a fraction of the price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yog-Soluth Posted May 21, 2013 Author Share Posted May 21, 2013 I never said you ragequit (what was that you said about putting words in other peoples mouths again?) Highlighted the part where you said that. Sure, not in those exact words, but its the jist of what you said. Having it included in an expansion would mean you would pay for it even if you didnt want it (the new race that is). Because the value of the race would be included in the pricing of the expansion. This way you can decide if you want it or not and you dont have to buy the expansion to get it. Or indeed you dont have to pay for it if you dont want it but just want the expansion. First off sorry didn't mean to imply that you said i rage quit just wanted to let people know this wasn't just me waking up mad at 2.1 and quit. Second off a subscription isn't free so I don't expect any new or old content for free. And lastly I did say that there is room for everybody f2pers and subs and by this I think a game can have both people who pay every month to have the vast majority of content (including races) and the people who want to pay for only the specific things they want. And before you think I think that subs should have every cartel market item no I don't. The Cathar and a basic customization package with more options on the market would have been fair but of course I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxIncubixx Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 I love fanboys, especially of the Mangina type. You do realize that Bioware reps are on record apologizing for the marketing schpiel being poorly worded and not indicative of what has actually transpired, right? They already admitted to misleading (at best) and/or lying (at worst). But keep on white knighting to their defense. They very much need people who blindly defend them on the forums. Wait ... no ... no they don't. http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/ You, sir, are an unhelpful fanboy. Read it, learn it, love it. Stop being an unhelpful fanboy. lol it wouldnt be bioware apoliziing it would be EA and that never happened. EA doesnt give a flying **** for what you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alkazarr Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 I have unsubbed from this game no threat or falsehood. Before all the rage trollers chime in please know I have absolutely had a great time time here with all the SWTORers (know its not a word but wth;)) So I will try to make this brief but I feel I need to rage a little. 2.1 yes was the last straw and funny thing is I didn't even want to play as a Cathar or really concerned with my appearance overly much. But and this will get them opposed to my viewpoint raging I was supposed to get all races with my sub and customization options. I have been playing and subscribing since the 2nd day of early access and no this entitles me to nothing but what any subscriber should have or what can be bought on the cartel market. Yet I still feel wronged somehow any other mmo I have played a new race has came with an expansion pack and was there for all everybody to use as long as they subscribed and bought the expansion. I know I know this expansion was dirt cheap compared to others but I also feel so was the content not that I didn't enjoy it. It really comes down to I feel my 15 dollar sub has decreased in such a value that I no longer want to pay for this game. the funny thing IMHO is the f2pers will go through the same thing the subbers have been feeling. They will see that there is a scheduled downtime (hope being eternal as the saying goes) and hope that Bioware is surprising us with an event or that the bug they reported is being fixed or...... etc but turns out 10 new cartel market items and a discount on 20 others. The bad thing really is that there is room for both f2pers and subbers they just haven't decided how yet. I truly hope the force is with you all and to see ya again but until then good luck and goodbye As a subscriber and a founder, I feel where you're coming from. I go get tired of seeing these f2pers complaining about playing the game free constantly in general chat and it irritates me to no end, as I remember the times when you HAD to pay to play this pretty decent game. Personally, SWTOR itself hasn't pissed me off that much. I just wish they would do away with weekely caps for comms and reps if you subscribe. That's nonsense. Maybe reps at the push, but not comms as back i the day there was no nonsense like that. Regarding the new race, etc... I'm not too bothered. However the only reason I feel like that is because the race in question is the Cathar (AKA the furry epidemic , bane of the interwebz) but it it happened to be something else, then yeah...I might have got a bit irrate as well. I think swtor does need to come to terms with its finance model. Either way, it's freemium with a cash shop OR it's got subs, OR it does both (like currently) but in which case, it does it PROPERLY. I don't really like being treated like some kind of afterthought when I've been a subscriber since early jan 2012, and never once dropped it. It's bad customer service. But hey, can't say I'm surprised or that EA/BW is the first company to pull a similar stunt on its core audience/market. All in all, there's been a new expansion and the gree event is starting soon (today I think?) so content wise, I'm happy. The day they stop putting out meaningful content and turn into a complete cash shop jezebel, then it's the day I'll pack my bags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arlon_Nabarlly Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 People unsubbing because of 2.1 makes no sense to me for the following reasons: 1. Nothing actually changed. Your sub is no more or less of worth than it was pre-2.1. You have to pay for customization options just have you've been forced to since F2P. 2. 2.1 isn't part of the 8 week cycle so this patch isn't considered content, you're not missing out on something because this was added. 3. Stuff that costs CC doesn't actually cater to F2Pers at all. They said at the last Cantina Q&A that more subs are spending CCs than F2Ps. Now for the other side of the argument, where Bioware dropped the ball. There mistakes were really just enouraging people to get false perceptions of being cheated (when they really weren't) 1. The quote that subbers will get free access to in game systems was poorly worded. There have also been even more quotes that the direction the market is heading is to make cosmetic changes cost CCs. So people that were clinging to the older quote were stretching a bit IMO, but still need to be more careful what words you use. 2. Revan's mask example in collections interviews (see above)\ 3. The main place I think they really messed up was having an entirely CM patch and making it a point release. People are perceiving this as a giant change in focus/direction, it's not but I can see where they get their false perceptions. They should have waited till the 8 weeks and released Cathar and maybe collections with whatever content they were intending for 2.2 as 2.1. Then the next 8 weeks add appearance kiosk with whatever content in that patch. I don't think they should ever release an all CM patch like that again, they should always try to balance the 8 week patches half CM and half content (more or less) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Machine-Elf Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 Nice story but next time jsut for consistency, could you please use alinea's? It makes it really hard to read if you dont use the enter button after a sentence. Thanks for adv and if you can please edit it a bit to make it more readable? "Alinea's"? You mean, the restaurant...?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asbalana Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 (edited) I love fanboys, especially of the Mangina type. You do realize that Bioware reps are on record apologizing for the marketing schpiel being poorly worded and not indicative of what has actually transpired, right? They already admitted to misleading (at best) and/or lying (at worst). But keep on white knighting to their defense. They very much need people who blindly defend them on the forums. Wait ... no ... no they don't. http://www.eldergame.com/2008/06/taming-the-forum-tiger/ You, sir, are an unhelpful fanboy. Read it, learn it, love it. Stop being an unhelpful fanboy. Your linked article was a very interesting read. It contained a number of valid observations and made some good points. It also showed a lack of basic understanding of a games players and to a degee contempt for them. It also made gaming company staff look like immature people who are as bad or worse than the forum goers. Playing drinking game while reading posts, deleting or locking threads while in a snit, and so on does not paint a pretty image of what the staff of a gaming company thinks of us. I got a them against us mentality. Indeed only a small fraction of a game's players post on the forum. Forums do indeed have haters, trolls, defenders and the like. People get upset and rage post. But most of that mud can be dismissed. Yet when the noise and goo is panned away there is gold remaining. Simply, swtor is a fail that may or may not continue to limp along. The reasons why were indentified and discussed by caring good people who were pretty smart soon after launch and in feed back during beta. They were ignored and are gone now. After the launch of Cata, the WOW forums exploded with threads discussing the problems and reactions to the expansion. The posters were ignored, dismissed, and minimized and many threads and posts deleted or locked. So in a few short years, 12+ million subs went to a little over 8. In swtor 2+ million game sales went to well under 500K subs in quick time. The forums are like everything else on the net - good, bad, and ugly. They should be mined for the good and the rest controlled and minimized. Rather than looking out to the forum members, the author should have looked in to the gaming company staff. Edited May 21, 2013 by asbalana Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtkram Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 People unsubbing because of 2.1 makes no sense to me for the following reasons: have you really been paying attention to what they're saying (not how they're saying it) and trying to understand? or does it not make sense just because you disagree? 3. Stuff that costs CC doesn't actually cater to F2Pers at all. They said at the last Cantina Q&A that more subs are spending CCs than F2Ps. Now for the other side of the argument, where Bioware dropped the ball. There mistakes were really just enouraging people to get false perceptions of being cheated (when they really weren't) seems to me you do understand. i can't speak for everyone, but some people are upset they were mislead. it's becoming more obvious the developers want to move the game in a direction where they trick us into spending more cartel coins. that's not what the developers should be focused on. it would be better if they focused on being clear and honest with their intention and developing real content like new warzone maps and story lines and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrazyCanukk Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 We were never promised all future content for free. We were promised all current content as part of our sub as of F2P launching and that's what we got. I don't like it either but Bioware has kept their word. This pretty much sums it up nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeterno Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 (edited) I find it its still worth the sub for me personally. I guess that depends on how compulsive you are on having everything off of the CM the day it launches. I've been subbed since f2p launch and I'm sitting on 4k CC atm without spending a dime on them. Thing is I only bought the valliant armor and a couple other things with the coins, rest I picked up with ingame credits on the GTN and I still have 40 mil credits even tho I stopped trying to make money from crafting half a year ago. Se yea, I personally I don't have any problems with the way game turned out, but if you have a gambling box addiction then yea I can see some problem heh. Just don't do it. The most exclusive cartel item is a couple mil on the gtn at the highest. Use credits for that and coins for stuff thats CM exclusive. Only if those items start to multiply beyond control will there be a genuine problem. As it stands the only item I can think of a sub only player cant get for credits is the pod racer speeder. Save yer stipend for stuff like that. If you can't cos you bought 10 dye packs on the day 2.1 hit, well tough I guess. But you only got yourself to blame. As a sub you were given what, like 8k coins by now. Couple 100 for a new race/hair-due is hardly out of a sub only players reach, if he planned ahead just a little bit and did what he professes he prefers - acquired the CM items by working in-game. Edited May 21, 2013 by aeterno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 I'm sorry to see you go OP. I hope you return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andryah Posted May 21, 2013 Share Posted May 21, 2013 (edited) You know what I agree with the OP. I've been playing mmo's since they began and I can't stand the trend f2p has brought around. The awful "expansion" which was really just a lame DLC should have had Cathar included. Bioware had been talking about Cathar for what 6 months before now? The "expansion" was 10 bucks for subbers, which is nothing if you are used to playing sub based mmo's. I can completely see why he is unsubbing from this game. Since f2p the game updates have rapidly turned into nothing but Cartel Market updates with fewer and fewer actual in game updates. Anything that costs Cartel Coins does not count as a game update. It is pretty depressing to see how this game turned out. I guess you are going to have to give up MMOs then. Because the subscription only MMOs are history. Yeah... we have some old ones running that model until they get planted in dirt... but you are not going to see it on new MMOs, including new Blizzard MMOs (given they ever actually release a new one in this century). Edited May 21, 2013 by Andryah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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