Well obviously the fight could not be allowed to come to a natural conclusion. Palpatine had to 'win' so he could become Emperor, but Yoda couldn't very well be killed.

I think it would have been better if they had juggled the timeline a bit so that Palpatine abandoned the fight when he sensed what happened to Anakin or something. I agree it's a bit weak that Yoda just throws in the towel so quickly when he's the last defense against domination of the galaxy by the absolute antithesis of everything he and the Jedi Order stood for.

As I pretty much say be default these days, read the book.

The movie fails as getting so many things across to the viewer, this is just one of them. In the book it explains how Yoda was actually losing the fight pretty badly, getting worn out while Sidious just kept going on and on like it was effortless. Yoda knew he was going to lose and his fight or flight instinct switched gears. In the movie it looks like the battle is tied and he just decides "nevermind."

I think the failing is two fold. One, they nerfed Sidious big time, made him look like at best he only had a slight advantage. That goofy chair flop part is b-movie materiel, and the end of the fight looks like he's struggling just as much as Yoda, if perhaps getting more entertainment out of the strain. "HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! ..OH?" Second, the movie doesn't try at all to portray what Yoda is thinking. He doesn't say anything to anyone, even himself, to really explain his thought process. You just get this stupid out of place line about Dagobah, cause yay OT reference, no time for anything else! Why is he exiling himself? Why did he pick Dagobah so damn quickly? Why did he run away from the fight to end all fights? He wasn't wounded so there must be a reason but hell you can just imagine one yourself cause we don't have the time or directoral ability to give you one. Nope, nothin, just "im goin to dagobah brah!"

As I pretty much say be default these days, read the book.

 

The movie fails as getting so many things across to the viewer, this is just one of them. In the book it explains how Yoda was actually losing the fight pretty badly, getting worn out while Sidious just kept going on and on like it was effortless. Yoda knew he was going to lose and his fight or flight instinct switched gears. In the movie it looks like the battle is tied and he just decides "nevermind."

I really dislike the idea of going to the books unless it's describing something going on offscreen, otherwise it turns into 'What you saw in the movie isn't actually what happened.!"

There's nothing we see in that fight that suggests it was particularly exhausting, it certainly didn't seem anymore intense (and I don't think it was much longer, if at all) than Yoda's fight with Dooku, and he wasn't dropping from exhaustion after that one.

IIRC the book also tries to ameliorate the rather humiliating slaughter of the Jedi Masters in Palp's office by saying he used some Super Sith Speed that.was....nowhere in evidence on screen.

Well the only thing that really changed about the office scene was that the deaths are less retarded. In the movie its just "herp, dead, derp another dead." Those two in the movie can't be considered masters, or even ****in padawans, for being killed as easily as they did. At least in the book they have an excuse, since they were dead before they even had time to react. In the movie they had more then enough time to react. ****, one of palpatines "moves" in the movie is this rediculously drawn out jab he makes the O Face while doing. Anybody could parry that **** let alone a freakin jedi.

The movie sucks, that sums it up.

The books = The movies and vis versa.

You can only have the actors/effects/props do so much to showcase what goes on, so blaming the books or movies just isn't right. The books go into further detail of just what is going on(abit with some differences), just because the movies can't show certain things properly at times doesn't mean the books or movies isn't correct.

The books = The movies and vis versa.

 

You can only have the actors/effects/props do so much to showcase what goes on, so blaming the books or movies just isn't right. The books go into further detail of just what is going on(abit with some differences), just because the movies can't show certain things properly at times doesn't mean the books or movies isn't correct.

That kind of reeks of laziness. Why not just change the fight scene to make it interesting, instead of the silliness we see in the movies and trying to patch it up with the book saying "That's not actually what happened."

"Oh sure, he calls himself Palpatine and seems to be a human Sith Lord, but he's actually Morba, the Space Queen from Dimension X. Nevermind that no such thing was ever seen or mentioned in the movie."

That kind of reeks of laziness. Why not just change the fight scene to make it interesting, instead of the silliness we see in the movies and trying to patch it up with the book saying "That's not actually what happened."

 

"Oh sure, he calls himself Palpatine and seems to be a human Sith Lord, but he's actually Morba, the Space Queen from Dimension X. Nevermind that no such thing was ever seen or mentioned in the movie."

Are you implying that Ian Mcdiarmid can't act?! ! No but really...Ian wanted to do all his own things, he didn't want a stunt double so...there you go, I mean the guy is old.

Are you implying that Ian Mcdiarmid can't act?! ! No but really...Ian wanted to do all his own things, he didn't want a stunt double so...there you go, I mean the guy is old.

He's pretty spry for an old guy, what with all those aerial somersaults and getting hurled backwards across rooms and tumbling over furniture, and jumping down thirty feet from platform to platform.

For as CG heavy as Star Wars is, I'm sure they could have come up with a fight scene that didn't involve a bunch of Jedi standing there screaming like little girls while they were helplessly cut down.

He's pretty spry for an old guy, what with all those aerial somersaults and getting hurled backwards across rooms and tumbling over furniture, and jumping down thirty feet from platform to platform.

 

For as CG heavy as Star Wars is, I'm sure they could have come up with a fight scene that didn't involve a bunch of Jedi standing there screaming like little girls while they were helplessly cut down.

It was suppose to be from the viewpoint, that Sidious was moving too fast for them to react. Hence why they just seem to stand there.

Are you implying that Ian Mcdiarmid can't act?! ! No but really...Ian wanted to do all his own things, he didn't want a stunt double so...there you go, I mean the guy is old.

He was one of the best things in the new trilogy IMO, just perfect performance, but - considering his lightsaber fights, he's really too old (not for a sith, but for a human actor playing sith). Therefore I think they should have useds a younger double tranied in sword combat for the lightsaber fights and use the actor only when they show the face.

But that doesn't apply only for Yoda fight, but also to the "office" fight already mentioned here and maybe some more.

He was one of the best things in the new trilogy IMO, just perfect performance, but - considering his lightsaber fights, he's really too old (not for a sith, but for a human actor playing sith). Therefore I think they should have useds a younger double tranied in sword combat for the lightsaber fights and use the actor only when they show the face.

 

But that doesn't apply only for Yoda fight, but also to the "office" fight already mentioned here and maybe some more.

Or you know, just not had him sword fight. He's the Emperor! He should have laughed and just killed the Jedi with the Force.

It was suppose to be from the viewpoint, that Sidious was moving too fast for them to react. Hence why they just seem to stand there.

He was moving pretty slowly in the film. I refuse to accept the feeble attempts by the author of the novelization to retroactively explain that what we saw on screen was not actually what happened. None of the subtext he attributes to Sidious' fights was ever implied or shown in the film, which is really what we're going on here.

That kind of reeks of laziness. Why not just change the fight scene to make it interesting, instead of the silliness we see in the movies and trying to patch it up with the book saying "That's not actually what happened."

 

"Oh sure, he calls himself Palpatine and seems to be a human Sith Lord, but he's actually Morba, the Space Queen from Dimension X. Nevermind that no such thing was ever seen or mentioned in the movie."

^What this guy said. The novel should be used to explore background and scenes we didn't see, things there wasn't time to show in the film, if it explores anything of that nature at all. Quite honestly, a novelization of a film is quite lame to begin with.

Yoda and Sidious probably should not have fought. I doubt either of them would be willing to let the other escape alive from that fight, and for Yoda to suddenly decide, "Into exile, I must go" after a fairly even fight is an absurd cop out for the sake of plot convenience. Yoda probably should have been like, "I'm too old, Obi-Wan. We cannot hope to face the Emperor after the way he slaughtered Mace and those other Jedi. You take out Vader and we'll train his kids to kill the Emperor."

^What this guy said. The novel should be used to explore background and scenes we didn't see, things there wasn't time to show in the film, if it explores anything of that nature at all. Quite honestly, a novelization of a film is quite lame to begin with.

I think another issue is that a lot of people, in fact I'd hazard to say the vast majority of 'Star Wars Fans', are fans of the movies period, who probably never have and never will pick up a Star Wars novel. So what appears on screen is the story of Star Wars, and what they saw is a bunch of Jedi Masters standing there like slackjawed idiots while Palpatine cut them down, and Yoda running away and letting the bad guy win.

Are we ignoring the corkscrew flp across the room? He didnt exactly dodder around like an invalid in the move. In the scene with all the jedi or the fight with yoda

Wait, yes he did. He jumps forward and stops about six feet in front of them. Then he snarls, draws back, and THEN stabs the first Jedi. There is a lag between their deaths, it was really quite pathetic.

He was moving pretty slowly in the film. I refuse to accept the feeble attempts by the author of the novelization to retroactively explain that what we saw on screen was not actually what happened. None of the subtext he attributes to Sidious' fights was ever implied or shown in the film, which is really what we're going on here.

Retroactive? Okay see your just flat out of context now. The novelization was written based on the screen play, not the film itself, and written at the same time the film was produced, not after.

The author wasn't trying to explain the scenes in new light, he was explaining them simply how he interpreted them based on the screen play. Which leads me to believe the screen play was either lacking to begin with and he had to compensate for it to make the book not suck or the screen play was much better then the final product Georgie produced. Either way, Lucas is to blame. He's a ****in hack these days and they shouldn't of let him have so much control over the PT. Either his screen play sucked, his directorial ability sucked, or both. The book makes up for it with a competent author telling the story in a way that isn't complete garbage. Giving the nessisary details so that things make sense, ignoring the **** thats worthless fluff, and making us actually understand the characters rather then just witness them.

And I hear the excuse a lot that its hard to do that in a movie, hard to show what characters are feelings. Yeah, it is hard, but its not impossible. There are very good directors around that can and do pull it off. George isn't one of them. He used to be good, but not anymore. I wish people would stop giving him a free pass like its impossible for movies to be as deep as books.

Wait, yes he did. He jumps forward and stops about six feet in front of them. Then he snarls, draws back, and THEN stabs the first Jedi. There is a lag between their deaths, it was really quite pathetic.

16 seconds is how long it takes him to leap across the room and kill 3 jedi masters. What more do you want?

I already thought there was something wrong about that fight back then when I saw it. Now I watched the whole thing again and the feeling came back. I mean, it seemed like Yoda was winning the fight, then he simply walks away and says he failed? Weird. If he stayed there, he would win no doubt.

lets review ..... each time Yoda jumped to a senate pod, he had to evade, (at one stage igniting and then shutting down his lightsaber) until finally enough was enough, he stopped the pod and flung it back at palatine , thus giving him the time he needed to close the gap ( his objective), which let to the showdown of force mastery.

it could have gone either way. except it didn't. palpatine had the good fortune of holding on to the pod and maintaining his high ground, Yoda even with his desperation (nails sc****** the pod on the way down) was effectively put back to square one....and flight become the better option. (especially given the destruction of the jedi through order 66) flee and rebuild, or stay and be destroyed. you don't pee into the wind. it gets messy.

If he stayed there, he would win no doubt.

No, Palpatine spent almost the whole fight laughing at him.

The Jedi are fearsome opponents because they can see a few seconds into the future, and for centuries, they practiced their martial styles based on that assumption. The movies mention several times that the Dark side obscures this prescience, which is probably why Jedi, who have lightning fast reflexes in every other scene, fumble so easily when faced with someone they have trouble predicting. They are effectively fighting with blinders on. I really think the only reason Windu lasted as long as he did was because Palpatine had to keep him alive long enough for Anakin to get there and witness the attack. As soon as he did, and made his choice, the fight was over.

Moreover, despite Yoda's skill and acrobatics, his big moves in that fight are all defensive. Sure, he catches and returns a senate pod, but doesn't throw any of his own because he's too busy dodging them. He temporarily stalls the lightning, but basically ends up doing as much harm to himself as he does to his opponent in the attempt. He barely manages to hold his own against an opponent who spends the entire fight bemused by the effort, and at worst looks annoyed that the little green Jedi isn't dead yet. Sidious, by the way, doesn't even need to fight Yoda on his own, since he is the current head of state and can call in plenty of help whenever he wants it... but he never does, because he's not worried.

Ultimately, Yoda had no chance in that fight, because even if he could have turned things around, Sidious would simply call in more guards until the Jedi was overwhelmed by the combination of traditional firepower and Sith magic. Yoda realized that, and fled, knowing he stood no chance long term. One of his comments earlier was about too many Jedi being filled with hubris, and had he shared that weakness, he no doubt would have shared their fate.

Honestly, it was a stupid plan to begin with; gee, I don't like the current elected official, so I'll just wander into his office and murder him, and then everything will be fine. It was almost as stupid a plan as abruptly sending a bunch of Jedi to arrest him... Sidious won that fight the moment he was elected Supreme Chancellor at the end of Episode I, and everything after that was just the Jedi slowly realizing they'd already lost.

I really think the only reason Windu lasted as long as he did was because Palpatine had to keep him alive long enough for Anakin to get there and witness the attack.

You underestimate Vaapad.

Retroactive? Okay see your just flat out of context now. The novelization was written based on the screen play, not the film itself, and written at the same time the film was produced, not after.

 

The author wasn't trying to explain the scenes in new light, he was explaining them simply how he interpreted them based on the screen play. Which leads me to believe the screen play was either lacking to begin with and he had to compensate for it to make the book not suck or the screen play was much better then the final product Georgie produced. Either way, Lucas is to blame. He's a ****in hack these days and they shouldn't of let him have so much control over the PT. Either his screen play sucked, his directorial ability sucked, or both. The book makes up for it with a competent author telling the story in a way that isn't complete garbage. Giving the nessisary details so that things make sense, ignoring the **** thats worthless fluff, and making us actually understand the characters rather then just witness them.

 

And I hear the excuse a lot that its hard to do that in a movie, hard to show what characters are feelings. Yeah, it is hard, but its not impossible. There are very good directors around that can and do pull it off. George isn't one of them. He used to be good, but not anymore. I wish people would stop giving him a free pass like its impossible for movies to be as deep as books.

George has really never been that great at directing. Working on ANH he had other people collaborating with him helping him to produce a great movie, and the result of that effort was a middle ground that avoided many potential pitfalls and kept the best ideas of the people involved in making it.

Empire and RotJ weren't directed by him, and the screenplays were only based on his story. That's George's strength, he has great story ideas and envisions a fascinating universe. He's not very good at directing films which portray his universe, however.

Honestly, it was a stupid plan to begin with; gee, I don't like the current elected official, so I'll just wander into his office and murder him, and then everything will be fine. It was almost as stupid a plan as abruptly sending a bunch of Jedi to arrest him... Sidious won that fight the moment he was elected Supreme Chancellor at the end of Episode I, and everything after that was just the Jedi slowly realizing they'd already lost.

Like I said, Yoda should really have never gone to fight Sidious. The entire prequels turn Yoda into a bumbling imbecile. Instead of the wise, old Jedi Master we see in Empire and RotJ, he's a goofy cartoon.

Yoda spends the whole trilogy basically being too stupid to see the writing on the wall, and then when it's finally obvious that Skywalker has fallen to the Dark Side, he then makes a fool of himself by confronting the Emperor; alone and outgunned, what did he expect to happen?

I havent read any books.

One could argue Sidious was simply so powerful, that Yoda's ignorance was pretty much a certainty. Perhaps this is also what Yoda realised. When he confronted the Emperor, Yoda only knew him as Palpatine, who certainly doesn't look ferocious, but rather more of an elitist snob doing politics. Yoda could severely have underestimated Sidious based on prejudice. When he fought with Sidious, he must also have realised that the entire Clone Wars was all orchestrated by Sidious. When he fell in the Senate building, he chose to flee. Perpaps he thought that, although there was a good chance at defeating Sidious, surviving was first priority. The Jedi had to survive after the decimation. If he killed Palpatine, the gains would not be so great as to outweigh the losses had he fell in battle.

At least that is my vision of the duel. Good thing it is fiction, so I can speculate about it to my liking

You underestimate Vaapad.

Do I? The only guy that is left alive is the one who attempts to utilize the vapors of his own brushes with the Dark against a master who revels in it. The only guy that is left alive more than a few seconds is the guy who Yoda all but accused of being too arrogant, who after all his companions fell so quickly, continues to press the attack against his giggling opponent, certain could yet overcome him all alone. The guy who only seemed to manage any sort of headway in that fight once Anakin runs into the room and stands there in a moment of indecision, and who is so easily tossed aside once that moment is over.

I'm not sure I'm underestimating Vaapad at all. I think Vaapad was a brilliant trap that Windu set for himself.

Yoda spends the whole trilogy basically being too stupid to see the writing on the wall, and then when it's finally obvious that Skywalker has fallen to the Dark Side, he then makes a fool of himself by confronting the Emperor; alone and outgunned, what did he expect to happen?[

(sorry to edit your quote, but I find that color really annoying)

I think you are absolutely right. Yoda is very wise later, and does spend the trilogy doing stupid things. Wisdom comes from someplace, and in movies 1-3, we're watching him earn it. He realizes he is outgunned, and that the Light Side can never destroy the Dark with its own weapons. His real epiphany when trying to assault the master of the Dark comes in that fight, and only then does he realize he cannot win that way. Yoda's victory happens decades later, when Luke recognizes that wisdom, and tosses his own saber aside. That's when the Dark Side is defeated. Everything else, telekinesis, lightning bolts, all that is dross.

(sorry to edit your quote, but I find that color really annoying)

 

I think you are absolutely right. Yoda is very wise later, and does spend the trilogy doing stupid things. Wisdom comes from someplace, and in movies 1-3, we're watching him earn it. He realizes he is outgunned, and that the Light Side can never destroy the Dark with its own weapons. His real epiphany when trying to assault the master of the Dark comes in that fight, and only then does he realize he cannot win that way. Yoda's victory happens decades later, when Luke recognizes that wisdom, and tosses his own saber aside. That's when the Dark Side is defeated. Everything else, telekinesis, lightning bolts, all that is dross.

Its what gandalf says.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Fby3O74fWE