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This is outta control


WNxAbaddon

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Guys read the op, its not about price Its about the fact they changed there minds TWICE before, first they said it was free, then they said they didnt know, then they said you would have to pay for it.

 

So it obviously is about the price, always has been and always will be with you lot now matter what spin you try to put on this.

You are contradicting yourself way too much to be taken even remotely serious, you started off with accusations about nickel and dime and then stated how the price isn't really the issue here, seriously?

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@ Driveinns & LordSkyKnight

 

Please, all am asking is that we can have a semi honest and upfront discussion about this, Can we please, keep the personal attacks away, I dont wanna see another topic like this locked as it just turned into another, am right no your wrong thread, I have no problem with people if they wanna debate the whys and if nots, but please cant we be adults for once, rather than mad men just screaming insults at each other, all it dose is make BOTH sides look like morons.

 

So it obviously is about the price, always has been and always will be with you lot now matter what spin you try to put on this.

You are contradicting yourself way too much to be taken even remotely serious, you started off with accusations about nickel and dime and then stated how the price isn't really the issue here, seriously?

 

The nickel and dime reference was for the cartel shop, thats when it started, wile the feeling of nickel and diming just carry's on, for me I dont feel nickel and dimed over the " expo " as I wont be getting it, what i dont like is the thought that I might have to get it if i wanna carry on playing, when I dont agree with how EA handled it

Edited by WNxAbaddon
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From the announcement of Rise of the Hutt Cartel, some areas of the fan base, my self included, have been angered about the nickle and dimming that EA are doing, but the " expansion " as just made matters worse. This started when the cartel shop / F2P was released, this isnt a nee jerk reaction to one thing or the fact that its about $10 its about whats right and fair.

 

After watching the rise of the cartel coins vid, I goto say most of what they say make sense, so I goto ask is this turning into a P.R nightmare for the game ? and really do we subscribers have a right to be angry over $10 ?

 

Its fair to say there's a feeling of a lack of trust in EA / Biowear, we are being asked to pre order when there's little or no info on the forums and there's a LOT of questions about this " expansion " that need to be answered, this could be cleared up right here right now, if EA would come out and say " This is what your getting and you will need or not need the expo for the extra 5 lvls " But they wont.

 

So people are asking, What are they hiding most people are smart enough to smell a conn when they see it, add in EA track record and that is why people are angry, its not about $10, its about the P.R mess that EA find themselves in, It went from Subs wont pay, to Hmmmm wellllll We dont know, to Give me your money, RWZ was another mess that EA landed itself in its all down to poor communication, something EA as struggled with over this last year.

 

So the question for fans is, Do you trust EA enough to give them your $10 and do you think its fair that we cant use cartel coins to get the Expo ?

 

All most fans what is more information, then we can say this is fair or not, untill that info is out there, most people will rage stamp there feet arguing or defending the latest P.R mess, this only hurts the game, but questions need to be asked over this one more P.R mess that swtor finds itself in, due to a lack of thought and a money grabbing attitude.

 

I thought we went through this already. You arent beeing nickled and dimed. You got a free sub month last summer. For you to be nickled and dimed you would have to give them an extra 3-4 euros/5-6 dollars.

 

Its fine to disagree with the way the expansion is setup, but you are NOT beeing nickle and dimed. Saying that ruins whatever point you're trying to make.

Edited by Nemmar
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I thought we went through this already. You arent beeing nickled and dimed. You got a free sub month last summer. For you to be nickled and dimed you would have to give them an extra 3-4 euros/5-6 dollars.

 

In your opinion.

 

Some don't share that opinion.

 

As you don't share theirs.

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I thought we went through this already. You arent beeing nickled and dimed. You got a free sub month last summer. For you to be nickled and dimed you would have to give them an extra 3-4 euros/5-6 dollars.

 

The free sub, wa due to another mess up, it was down to the outcry of angry people due to server outages and the lack of RWZ, thus as no baring on this a different matter.

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From the announcement of Rise of the Hutt Cartel, some areas of the fan base, my self included, have been angered about the nickle and dimming that EA are doing, but the " expansion " as just made matters worse. This started when the cartel shop / F2P was released, this isnt a nee jerk reaction to one thing or the fact that its about $10 its about whats right and fair.

 

After watching the rise of the cartel coins vid, I goto say most of what they say make sense, so I goto ask is this turning into a P.R nightmare for the game ? and really do we subscribers have a right to be angry over $10 ?

 

Its fair to say there's a feeling of a lack of trust in EA / Biowear, we are being asked to pre order when there's little or no info on the forums and there's a LOT of questions about this " expansion " that need to be answered, this could be cleared up right here right now, if EA would come out and say " This is what your getting and you will need or not need the expo for the extra 5 lvls " But they wont.

 

So people are asking, What are they hiding most people are smart enough to smell a conn when they see it, add in EA track record and that is why people are angry, its not about $10, its about the P.R mess that EA find themselves in, It went from Subs wont pay, to Hmmmm wellllll We dont know, to Give me your money, RWZ was another mess that EA landed itself in its all down to poor communication, something EA as struggled with over this last year.

 

So the question for fans is, Do you trust EA enough to give them your $10 and do you think its fair that we cant use cartel coins to get the Expo ?

 

All most fans what is more information, then we can say this is fair or not, untill that info is out there, most people will rage stamp there feet arguing or defending the latest P.R mess, this only hurts the game, but questions need to be asked over this one more P.R mess that swtor finds itself in, due to a lack of thought and a money grabbing attitude.

 

I have cancelled my sub. Im mostly focused on the class story anyway and since Makeb doesnt expand upon this then I see no point in supporting this game financially any further. I can play the class stories for free so theres no point in me paying for them.

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The free sub, wa due to another mess up, it was down to the outcry of angry people due to server outages and the lack of RWZ, thus as no baring on this a different matter.

 

It has complete bearing if you say you are beeing nickle and dimed and you arent.

 

Its arrogance to think that way.

 

Displeased with the features on the expansion: fine. Beeing nickled and dimed? No you arent. You are still paying less than you normally would. Its your perception of the situation that is different.

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It has complete bearing if you say you are beeing nickle and dimed and you arent.

 

Its arrogance to think that way.

 

Displeased with the features on the expansion: fine. Beeing nickled and dimed? No you arent. You are still paying less than you normally would. Its your perception of the situation that is different.

 

Yes i have paid less over the year, but take into account the time servers was down and the fact that features that we was told was gonna happen didnt come in till later, the month free was EA saying sorry after people left and at the time it was argued it was to make there sub numbers look good. So i stand by my comment.

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As this expansion and it's release stand now it will dramatically diminish an already eroding game. Whether you agree with paying $10 or not enough SUBSCRIBERS don't like it that you're gonna see allot of active level 50's leave the game. Unless they make some big changes and announcements I won't be here.
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Threads like these are great examples of how much of a joke these forums are. 10$ for 5 levels (new gear, new crafting recipes, new class abilities, etc.) and a new world is an outrage? Are you on welfare? If $10 xtra is traumatic for you then you need to get to work - pick up a paper route, shovel snow out of old people's driveways, mow lawns, get a job at McDonald's, "hang out" at cheap motels, etc.. Go! Serious gripes about this over and over in brand new thread after brand new thread... c'mon, you're destroying any credibility these boards ever might have had.
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"PvP – We have an entire team dedicated to adding content and features to player vs. player. We have some of the most experienced PvP developers in the world on this team. So far very few people have seen, or know much about the stunning Open World PVP on Ilum; when you get to the high levels prepare to be blown away! In addition to that high level PVP content, expect new Warzones and new PvP features on a regular basis."

 

"For 2012 we really want players to, going back to the subscription model, feel like they're getting their money's worth. So the scope of our game updates in 2012 is going to be unimaginable. You're going to see so many changes and additions to the Star Wars Universe. It's going to be impressive. We have our Update 1.2 coming in the next week and then after that it's going to continue to roll out month after month. It's exciting."

 

"SWTOR isn't really suited for a free-to-play model... we certainly have no plans like that in the foreseeable future. We're going to support the game to make it better and better as it goes on. It's going to be worth showing up for."

 

"BioWare hasn't yet seen any such exodus. Speaking with PC Gamer, BioWare's Daniel Erickson said that SWTOR numbers were holding steady. "

 

Ilum was broken and buggy and so poorly implemented it was removed from the game almost immediately after launch. 1.2 didn't come with half the things it promised. RWZ were cancelled only a few hours before the patch, and now a year later we haven't even officially started season one, we're still in preseason. Patches came out with nowhere near the regularity that they promised, nor the content, and datamining has proven that according to the old schedule, they've only released up to 1.4's content, they've simply strung it out to 1.6. The doctors didn't know that the game was going free to play scant months before it was announced? Just like they didn't know they were "retiring" ie running for the hills only a few weeks after this interview. And finally the big daddy, the numbers lie. Over and over we were told that the servers were fine, they weren't losing subs, don't worry. Everything is under control...

 

And those are just the biggies, of course there were many many many more, but those are the ones we really saw a big hit in numbers from, the ones that really dropped the game a peg or two. BW has lied to us so many times that there is literally no point in believing anything they say. Expect them to do the exact opposite from what they say and for every major decision to come out AGAINST the players and end up costing you more money.

 

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.372827-BioWare-Says-SWTOR-Subscriptions-Havent-Dropped

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/bioware-mmo-project/1225612p1.html

http://www.swtor.com/info/news/blog/20111213

 

Pretty much This ^

 

And it's pathetic beyond belief. Rather you pay to play or not. The overall direction and handling of this game grows more and more ridiculous.

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This is how this former free content is now be charged.

 

This with new flashpoint and new operation and new warzone and MAKEB content cap to 55 and ranked warzones and cathar were supposed to be all in the 1.5 content patch watch the video on the link.

 

 

 

But then EA fired everyone left from orginal founders of bioware and went ftp got greedy, we still dont have cathar or ranked warzones those be future expansion for each lol knowing EA.

 

It's not an expansion...

 

Not all expansions include a level cap raise, but MOST expansions do and MMO players generally relate a level cap raise with an expansion.

 

EA Suits: "Ok Bioware, how do we try to justify this as an expansion so we can charge for it?"

 

Bioware Devs: "Add new abilities to classes and raise the level cap"

 

EA Suits: "Good idea, so raise the level cap so we can charge for this content pack...err expansion I mean."

 

Bioware Devs: "The problem is that we don't have enough new content to justify a level cap increase - just a new planet and some story missions."

 

EA Suits: "Find a way to justify calling this an expansion, we need to charge for it."

 

Bioware Devs: "I guess we can just scale some of the old content so that it is still relevant at the new level cap."

 

EA Suits: "Whatever, just get it done."

 

Bioware Devs: "So how much are you charging for this "expansion?"

 

EA Suits: "$20 for F2P, $10 for Subs"

 

Bioware Devs: "Oh nice, so subs will just be able to use their monthly cartel coins to purchase the "expansion."

 

EA Suits: "(laughs), I like you. Also, no."

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Threads like these are great examples of how much of a joke these forums are.(1) 10$ for 5 levels (new gear, new crafting recipes, new class abilities, etc.) and a new world is an outrage? Are you on welfare? (2) If $10 xtra is traumatic for you then you need to get to work - pick up a paper route, shovel snow out of old people's driveways, mow lawns, get a job at McDonald's, "hang out" at cheap motels, etc.. Go! (3) Serious gripes about this over and over in brand new thread after brand new thread (4)... c'mon, you're destroying any credibility these boards ever might have had.

 

1. Post hoc ergo propter hoc

2. Ad hominem

3. False dilemma (bifurcation).

4. Non sequitur

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I play the game, I enjoy it. to me its important enough to want to play it and want to subscribe, the " its only $10 " dosnt work, the its 100% optional " dosnt work let me tell you why.

 

The Its only $10 dosnt work as they said it would be free, THEN they said we dont know, then they said it wont be, Anyone company doing this would be ripped apart, how would you feel if you took your computer to be repaid, then the guy turned to you and said, this is easy ill do it for free, next day rings you up and says " meh I dunno it might cost you " then the day later says, " Its gonna cost you $10 but it might not work correct and some of the things you expected to happen like your fans working might not. you would be angry.

 

As for the 100% optional

 

You get a extra 5 levels & new skills, but it seems ONLY if you get the " expo " so let me ask you what happens to the rest of us who dont get it ? Will there be new content for the lvl 50's and lvl 55 ? no it would be silly thelvl 55's get it.

 

So you see you HAVE to get it to play any new content from then on, all your gear will be useless, your toons will be useless. so in the end you just stop playing.

 

If I took my computer to be repaired and was told it would be free, then charged for it, I would take my business elsewhere. If I choose to continue to use the same computer repair service, then I forfeit my right to complain, IMO.

 

Same theory applies to everything else in life, including this game.

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If I took my computer to be repaired and was told it would be free, then charged for it, I would take my business elsewhere. If I choose to continue to use the same computer repair service, then I forfeit my right to complain, IMO.

 

Same theory applies to everything else in life, including this game.

 

That's not a valid analogy, your parts don't quite match up. For this theory to work you would have A. had to buy the computer from the repair shop in the first place. B. Have an ongoing account or service agreement (subscription package) C. Have the store honor part of the agreement but not the entire portion and D. Have a valid rationale for why arguing from the specific to the general is logically sound in this particular case as a generalized syllogism.

 

Here's the valid form you are looking for:

 

If I bought a computer from a company and they said they would service it for any hard drive or power supply problems and then when I took it in to have my hard drive and power supply fixed they said "sorry the PCU costs extra now."

 

What a concerned consumer would do is:

a. No longer buy computers from that retailer.

b. Since they will still service the PCU, take the PCU.

 

How, in this case, would forcing them to service the PCU as they agreed to force me to stop complaining about the parts of the agreement that they did not live up to?

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Threads like these are great examples of how much of a joke these forums are. 10$ for 5 levels (new gear, new crafting recipes, new class abilities, etc.) and a new world is an outrage? Are you on welfare? If $10 xtra is traumatic for you then you need to get to work - pick up a paper route, shovel snow out of old people's driveways, mow lawns, get a job at McDonald's, "hang out" at cheap motels, etc.. Go! Serious gripes about this over and over in brand new thread after brand new thread... c'mon, you're destroying any credibility these boards ever might have had.

 

One could easily say that had EA BW etc. done the things they said they do originally so on, and so forth, that the same forum credibility you're referring to would be in tact. You really can't point fingers at one without pointing fingers at the other. And to ignore the obvious simply because you are more annoyed currently, (and I stress CURRENTLY} with one aspect over the others does not change this. And before You go saying something about me and 10 bucks. It's only 10 bucks I will more than live, and no my issue is not with 10 bucks, as it does not matter to me. However annoying it is, The outcry about it holds some validity and that alone is what makes all this dumb in the first place. It's not the money it's the intent behind it. It is also very clear that folks complaining want to be here, yet simply don't like being ripped off. You know.. . Loyal customers.. Loyalty etc.

 

Furthermore, I doubt you are oblivious to this knowledge as a whole.

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All that this thread deserves because that's all it is attacking with.

 

Even if your concerns were sound and valid, that all this thread is can be summed up as one massive logical fallacy or rather a string of fallacies with no real meat behind them, then it should be easy to pick apart using actual logic wouldn't it?

 

See, if all the concerns about Makeb are truly unfounded, if they are unreasonable, if they are illogical, then logic would pick them apart in a way no one can argue against. So why don't you go ahead and try using that?

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I'm glad you took the time to read the thread, or even just the post just above yours before commenting...

 

As you can see, there are quite a few people who DO NOT share your point of view. Of course this game has its die hards and if BW said give me $100 tomorrow or we delete your toons, they would comply. But this game also now has a huge f2p community, lets call these people your healers and your tanks. And without this infusion of people who do not think this game is worth paying for, our servers go back to pre ftp levels of suck.

 

Keep that in mind.

 

I subscribe and my healer and tank toons would find two more DPS in no time. Besides, I'm betting that a lot of the f2p players are DPS, and not tank or heals.

 

I'm also betting that there will not be anywhere near the mass exodus over this that everyone threatens. Too many people will choose to pay the $10 (or $20 without pre-order) rather than stop playing, or they will "continue to play without the xpac" for a bit, until they bite the bullet and buy it.

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I subscribe and my healer and tank toons would find two more DPS in no time. Besides, I'm betting that a lot of the f2p players are DPS, and not tank or heals.

 

I'm also betting that there will not be anywhere near the mass exodus over this that everyone threatens. Too many people will choose to pay the $10 (or $20 without pre-order) rather than stop playing, or they will "continue to play without the xpac" for a bit, until they bite the bullet and buy it.

 

Well, since historically the playerbase has done nothing but grow and subs are massively higher than the 2M we started with and 1.2 was such a resounding success that we avoided having to go free to play and enough of those free players and subscribers are making use of the CM that Makeb was given as a free content patch as initially promised we have nothing to worry about...

 

You see I've been here since Beta, and I remember everyone screaming about all the bugs and how people would quit over them because they were game breaking. How you couldn't even do the OPs because of game breaking bugs and no spawns and boss resets and zoning problems and targeting problems and aggro problems

 

And there were the Defenders TM saying don't worry, so what if the Raiders leave, they're only a small part of the game and they'll fix the game soon and the Raiders will come back and when the game was reviewed as a WoW clone but BROKEN and people left in droves....

 

And then the Ilum Fiasco hit and every one said "it's not so bad, I mean you're only insta killed in a laggy environment and locked out of your toon until the horde of players on the other side decide to log off because the spawn point is exposed and bugs prevent you from leaving the area

 

And there were the Defenders TM saying don't worry, they'll fix Ilum soon and we'll have the superawesome OPVP world they promised us but people left in droves...

 

And I remember when 1.2 was supposed to start the ranked season and they were talking about ladders and arenas and Ranked Teams and tournaments and superawesome rewards and then four hours before launch Ranked was pulled from 1.2 and pushed back into an unspecified date and then months later was finally "added" but without an official start to the season in sight and no real mechanics aside from what was already added

 

And the Defenders TM were there saying "who cares about PVPers? This is a story MMO, let the PVPers leave." And they left in droves.

 

And after one year we have about 1/4th the number of subscribers that we had at launch. 75% of people have left this game over broken promises and broken patches, so when I hear someone say "it's not that big a deal, I doubt too many people leave over it."

 

I'm forced to remember all the people that have already left the game and why we have to accept changes to a game we pay for that makes it less appealing at all.

Edited by Durasturan
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That's not a valid analogy, your parts don't quite match up. For this theory to work you would have A. had to buy the computer from the repair shop in the first place. B. Have an ongoing account or service agreement (subscription package) C. Have the store honor part of the agreement but not the entire portion and D. Have a valid rationale for why arguing from the specific to the general is logically sound in this particular case as a generalized syllogism.

 

Here's the valid form you are looking for:

 

If I bought a computer from a company and they said they would service it for any hard drive or power supply problems and then when I took it in to have my hard drive and power supply fixed they said "sorry the PCU costs extra now."

 

What a concerned consumer would do is:

a. No longer buy computers from that retailer.

b. Since they will still service the PCU, take the PCU.

 

How, in this case, would forcing them to service the PCU as they agreed to force me to stop complaining about the parts of the agreement that they did not live up to?

 

Try to justify it however you wish. What it boils down to is this. You wish to continue to use a service or service provider, but complain about the service or prices, If you choose to continue to use that service or provider, then, IMO, you forfeit your right to complain. At the very least, you end up looking like a whining child. If you really feel so strongly about the lack of service or prices, then take your business elsewhere.

 

No one is forced to pay for this expansion. Before the cries of "We have to pay for it or we can't play it" start, you are not forced to play to the new level cap, or even to play the game at all. If you CHOOSE to play the game to the new level cap, then yes you have to pay for the xpac, but you are CHOOSING to play to the new level cap.

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Try to justify it however you wish. What it boils down to is this. You wish to continue to use a service or service provider, but complain about the service or prices, If you choose to continue to use that service or provider, then, IMO, you forfeit your right to complain. At the very least, you end up looking like a whining child. If you really feel so strongly about the lack of service or prices, then take your business elsewhere.

 

No one is forced to pay for this expansion. Before the cries of "We have to pay for it or we can't play it" start, you are not forced to play to the new level cap, or even to play the game at all. If you CHOOSE to play the game to the new level cap, then yes you have to pay for the xpac, but you are CHOOSING to play to the new level cap.

 

The main problem with your argument is that the main way a consumer supports a product or service is through money. You can continue to post criticisms and use their product without paying them ANY MONEY WHAT SO EVER. I'm not entirely sure what your argument is supposed to mean and when taken to the general it becomes down right nonsensical honestly.

 

"You don't like some politicians well then you should never vote!"

"You don't like your grade there fore you should never show up to class!"

 

Just because you dislike some aspect of some product or service that you pay for, you don't automatically lose your right to voice a concern about it. How criticism can be misconstrued as hatred is beyond me. I'm guessing it makes sense to a generation that was never scolded as children though or had their hand slapped away from a hot stove top.

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So the question for fans is, Do you trust EA enough to give them your $10 and do you think its fair that we cant use cartel coins to get the Expo ?

 

I trust no one outside of immediate family and friends. I will not give money to anyone until I know what I'm receiving. Anyone willing to pre-order the expansion, that's completely on them. I'll wait it out, just as I did with the Collectors Edition, which to me wasn't worth it. Either way, it's ten dollars, a drop in the bucket for most.

 

Regarding the Cartel option, again, it's ten dollars, buy it or don't.

 

Lastly, this is a free to play game, which is code for pay to play. Micro-transactions is what it's all about.

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Well, since historically the playerbase has done nothing but grow and subs are massively higher than the 2M we started with and 1.2 was such a resounding success that we avoided having to go free to play and enough of those free players and subscribers are making use of the CM that Makeb was given as a free content patch as initially promised we have nothing to worry about...

 

You see I've been here since Beta, and I remember everyone screaming about all the bugs and how people would quit over them because they were game breaking. How you couldn't even do the OPs because of game breaking bugs and no spawns and boss resets and zoning problems and targeting problems and aggro problems

 

And there were the Defenders TM saying don't worry, so what if the Raiders leave, they're only a small part of the game and they'll fix the game soon and the Raiders will come back and when the game was reviewed as a WoW clone but BROKEN and people left in droves....

 

And then the Ilum Fiasco hit and every one said "it's not so bad, I mean you're only insta killed in a laggy environment and locked out of your toon until the horde of players on the other side decide to log off because the spawn point is exposed and bugs prevent you from leaving the area

 

And there were the Defenders TM saying don't worry, they'll fix Ilum soon and we'll have the superawesome OPVP world they promised us but people left in droves...

 

And I remember when 1.2 was supposed to start the ranked season and they were talking about ladders and arenas and Ranked Teams and tournaments and superawesome rewards and then four hours before launch Ranked was pulled from 1.2 and pushed back into an unspecified date and then months later was finally "added" but without an official start to the season in sight and no real mechanics aside from what was already added

 

And the Defenders TM were there saying "who cares about PVPers? This is a story MMO, let the PVPers leave." And they left in droves.

 

And after one year we have about 1/4th the number of subscribers that we had at launch. 75% of people have left this game over broken promises and broken patches, so when I hear someone say "it's not that big a deal, I doubt too many people leave over it."

 

I'm forced to remember all the people that have already left the game and why we have to accept changes to a game we pay for that makes it less appealing at all.

 

I've been here since beta also, and I know that there have been a lot of players who left. That I will not argue. My bet is that a lot of the people who still play, or come here complaining on the forums, will not actually leave the game, or even cancel their subs, due to the restrictions that even preferred status has. If people are really upset and want to make the bigwigs at EA/BW listen, then they should speak with their wallets and not just unsub, but actually not even play at all. I doubt that most of the complainers will do either.

 

We'll just have to wait and see which of us is correct.

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