So I was reading the "Journal of Master Gnost-Dural" that came with my Collector's Edition last night, and I came across this tidbit on page 52:

All that is certain is that at the end of the war, the Republic did indeed send troops to scour Korriban's surface and ensure the Sith were completely vanquished.

Now correct me if I'm wrong but... isn't this -genocide-? Korriban was left completely lifeless; That means that unarmed men, women, and children who may not have even had anything to -do- with the Hyperspace War were murdered in cold blood after the actual fighting was over. And that one line is the only mention of it! There's nothing preceding or written after it to suggest that Master Gnost-Dural feels even a hint of regret at the loss of life, and in fact, after that one line I posted it is never mentioned again.

I'm pretty sure saying that "Well they did x and y to us, so it was fair!" is just not an appropriate excuse here. War or not, a group claiming to stand for justice and democracy should not be committing wholesale slaughter. I'll admit I was a bit surprised to read this in the journal- So what other instances of meditated evil by the Republic have I missed?!

Actually, this event was a major turning point for the future of the galaxy and while for some reason it is not well documented in said journal, it is analysed in the one of the Galactic History vids.

Basically, after the Sith were defeated during the Great Hyperspace War the Republic effectively committed genocide not just on Korriban but other Sith worlds, to ensure that the threat was entirely destroyed. However this forced the survivors to flee into uncharted space, angry and embittered. Led by the Sith Emperor they came across Dromund Kaas and established it as their new homeworld, swearing revenge against the Republic whom had decimated their people and forced them into exile.

So yes, effectively that one act may very well have caused the rebirth of the Sith Empire and the ensuing Great Galactic War. But what we also have to consider that not all the Sith were killed during the war, so wiping their planet's clean may have been the only way to resolve the threat. But given that it didn't work perhaps it was not the best course of action, certainly not the moral one.

And don't be fooled by the peaceful, democratic facade of the Republic. Without the Jedi they can be corrupt, ruthless and generally immoral.

And don't be fooled by the peaceful, democratic facade of the Republic. Without the Jedi they can be corrupt, ruthless and generally immoral.

And sometimes with the Jedi too. Since I suspect that the "KILL THEM ALL SCOUR KORRIBAN" idea probably CAME from the Jedi. They can be over-reactive towards what they consider dark side threats.

Without the Jedi they can be corrupt, ruthless and generally immoral.

Without the Jedi? The same Jedi who so implicitly understand the policy of "There is no divergence, only murdering any Force user who is not in our order." that they don't even feel the need to state it in their mantra?

I'm pretty sure saying that "Well they did x and y to us, so it was fair!" is just not an appropriate excuse here. War or not, a group claiming to stand for justice and democracy should not be committing wholesale slaughter. I'll admit I was a bit surprised to read this in the journal- So what other instances of meditated evil by the Republic have I missed?!

You're mistaken. This is not act of revenge. They just wanted to make sure that Sith order never raises again and thought this is the way to ensure it. Can't really blame them. This is one of the few times when Jedi were willing to do what is necessary. It's interesting that you find it wrong, and you are right, it's against the Jedi code. It only proves in my eyes that their whole idea is false and the Sith are right. Because in this one case when they finally do what is necessary to do, they are doing what Sith would do in the same situation actually :-)

And sometimes with the Jedi too. Since I suspect that the "KILL THEM ALL SCOUR KORRIBAN" idea probably CAME from the Jedi. They can be over-reactive towards what they consider dark side threats.

But I agree, they do have a narrow minded policy when it comes to the dark side. But at least they stay true to their principles and uphold the Jedi Code. Well at least they think they do. I personally, think the only way to resolve the conflict between Jedi and Sith is through reconciliation otherwise its an endless cycle of chaos.

You're mistaken. This is not act of revenge. They just wanted to make sure that Sith order never raises again and thought this is the way to ensure it. Can't really blame them. This is one of the few times when Jedi were willing to do what is necessary. It's interesting that you find it wrong, and you are right, it's against the Jedi code. It only proves in my eyes that their whole idea is false and the Sith are right. Because in this one case when they finally do what is necessary to do, they are doing what Sith would do in the same situation actually :-)

I think Kreia had the right idea, drawing from both sides of the coin rather than adhering to a single idea and most importantly not letting the Force control your actions or your destiny.

Neither the Sith nor the Jedi are right really. The Jedi let the Force use them as a tool and so act blindly and the Sith fool themselves into thinking they have control when they do not.

 

I think Kreia had the right idea, drawing from both sides of the coin rather than adhering to a single idea and most importantly not letting the Force control your actions or your destiny.

I won't argue that. That's why I said "in my eyes". I still think it's better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.

Immoral events are all over Star Wars. Letting a 9-year old race in the Boonta Eve Classic, against his mother's wishes. Forcing a Jedi Knight to spy on a government official. Sending Bothans on a suicide mission. By definition, the moral implications are mind-boggling, since two of those three atrocities were committed by Jedi. The catch? They did what they must. They needed spaceship parts. They needed information. They needed the Death Star II's weaknesses. Ironically, events in SWTOR (Like the Belsavis debacle, which most likely lead to the fall of Chancellor Janorus. Not to up to speed on out of game lore from that era) seem completely unnecessary. But the Empire is no better. Attacking the Esseles-a passenger ship!-over a suspected spy, keeping a powerful Force user in stasis for 300 years, attempting to wipe out the Galaxy. So, yeah. Choose your poison.

Just my two cents.

Actually, the idea was proposed by the Supreme Chancellor. However the Jedi did help the military carry out their orders. Pretty dark day for morality as a whole now I think about it.

Ah, okay. But yeah, called it that the Jedi were at least involved. They wouldn't miss killing off all the Sith for anything, it's the next best thing they have to a wild party.

But I agree, they do have a narrow minded policy when it comes to the dark side. But at least they stay true to their principles and uphold the Jedi Code. Well at least they think they do. I personally, think the only way to resolve the conflict between Jedi and Sith is through reconciliation otherwise its an endless cycle of chaos.

Yeah. Or at least until the Sith institute a rule of two, and a young Jedi accidentally-on-purpose convinces his Sith father to off both the remaining Sith. But maybe that was a reconciliation in a way.

Although I guess there's technically other Sith groups out there after that.

I think what we can draw from this is that both sides, Republic and Empire, Jedi and Sith, are flawed. However IMO the Jedi/Republic side is the most open to change, while the Sith/Empire are happy to revel in their imperfections.

I mean, when have you ever heard of the Sith doing something morally good? Even when it will actually lead to a better outcome? E.g. maintaining a strict policy of speciesism despite this being completely irrational and a waste of abundant potential.

On the other hand the Republic are prepared to do both good and bad depending on what the situation demands, but try to choose the 'right' action whenever possible. Avoiding the trap that the Sith/Empire has let itself fall into, for the lack of a better word: stupidity.

Either way I think that the decision to commit mass genocide was the wrong decision - both from a practical and moral perspective. However hunting down every remaining Sith would be justifiable. Though making them see through your own eyes would have been the best possible outcome.

I mean, when have you ever heard of the Sith doing something morally good? Even when it will actually lead to a better outcome? E.g. maintaining a strict policy of speciesism despite this being completely irrational and a waste of abundant potential.

How exactly do you know it's irrational? I believe we don't have enough background information in the game to say that. It's very well possible that Sith have some scientific-dark side based research implying that letting some lesser species into certain positions would weaken Empire's structure of power. I'm not saying that's the case, but saying it's irrational is nothing more than guessing as well.

Neither the Sith nor the Jedi are right really. The Jedi let the Force use them as a tool and so act blindly and the Sith fool themselves into thinking they have control when they do not.

 

I think Kreia had the right idea, drawing from both sides of the coin rather than adhering to a single idea and most importantly not letting the Force control your actions or your destiny.

It is stated by multiple sources that the Jedi Order has the most correct view of the Force.

It is stated by multiple sources that the Jedi Order has the most correct view of the Force.

But on a serious note, I suppose it depends on what said sources as defining as the Jedi Order's view. The Living Force? The Unifying Force? Nor are these beliefs unique only to the Jedi, Sidious for one believed in the Unifying Force.

But if its concerning the various codes, I'm not sure what grounds there are for such claims and ultimately its just a morality code. They define how the Force should be used, not what the Force is. The nature of the Force can remain the same whether you follow the Sith Code or the Jedi Code. Which one is correct is entirely subjective.

Well whoever wrote those sources hasn't played Knights of the Old Republic II!

 

But on a serious note, I suppose it depends on what said sources as defining as the Jedi Order's view. The Living Force? The Unifying Force? Nor are these beliefs unique only to the Jedi, Sidious for one believed in the Unifying Force.

 

But if its concerning the various codes, I'm not sure what grounds there are for such claims and ultimately its just a morality code. They define how the Force should be used, not what the Force is. The nature of the Force can remain the same whether you follow the Sith Code or the Jedi Code. Which one is correct is entirely subjective.

The Living Force. Considering that the Unifying Force theory was discredited. I believe Yoda also disagreed with the 'Unifying Force" theory.

Regardless, everyone has a different view of the Force.

Knights of the Old Republic 2 introduced some new and interesting fresh takes on the force, light side, dark side, and neutral.

But that's not to say the views in Kotor 2, Unifying force, or all light side (living force), or all dark side is the best possible option. I also remember hearing about the "light side is the true force" idea, I think maybe even George is the one who said that, and it might even be accurate. On an individual level light side is the most life affirming path to take, and also probably good on a societal level. It also appears that was how the force was originally created to be, and that the dark side became a corruption of that.

At the same time, some of the storyline that introduced Abeloth suggested that if the galaxy became wholly light side that would ALSO be very bad. And I'm not sure if that means on an individual level, or in the sense of the environment. But I can actually kinda understand where that might be coming from. If the light side is wholly calm, without self-interest, then an entirely light side galaxy could end up being kind of lethargic. Full of creative potential, but without the incentive of destruction to use it. Comforting and safe but without true growth in personality and spirit that comes from overcoming obstacles and facing mortality.

The Living Force. Considering that the Unifying Force theory was discredited. I believe Yoda also disagreed with the 'Unifying Force" theory.

 

Regardless, everyone has a different view of the Force.

I think the notion of the Ones is a good demonstration of this. Yes there is the Daughter and the Son whom seem to be manifestations of light and dark respectively. But we've also got the Father, who is neither and supports each side equally. Intially however, the Daughter and the Son were 'neutral'. Until the Son drank from the Font of Power and the Daughter bathed in the Pool of Knowledge. It was what they chose to do with their power that made then light and dark. Just as a lightsider chooses to give themselves up to serenity and the darksider chooses to give in to their passions.

In fact, the Living Force is fairly illogical. When a baby (with affinity in the Force) is born are they light or dark? The Living Force would suggest they are one or the other. And what about those without enough affinity to wield the Force, are they also categorised? I would say no, one is only categorized when one begins to wield the Force. The person defines the distinction. The Force itself is entirely neutral, it has to be.

Personally, I agree with the philosophy of the Unifying Force. I don't think there's any distinction between the light and the dark, its how you use it that brings about these distinctions. Else we wouldn't have unusual manifestations of the Force such as the Allyan magic, which seems to transcend both.

 

I think the notion of the Ones is a good demonstration of this. Yes there is the Daughter and the Son whom seem to be manifestations of light and dark respectively. But we've also got the Father, who is neither and supports each side equally. Intially however, the Daughter and the Son were 'neutral'. Until the Son drank from the Font of Power and the Daughter bathed in the Pool of Knowledge. It was what they chose to do with their power that made then light and dark. Just as a lightsider chooses to give themselves up to serenity and the darksider chooses to give in to their passions.

 

In fact, the Living Force is fairly illogical. When a baby (with affinity in the Force) is born are they light or dark? The Living Force would suggest they are one or the other. And what about those without enough affinity to wield the Force, are they also categorised? I would say no, one is only categorized when one begins to wield the Force. The person defines the distinction. The Force itself is entirely neutral, it has to be.

I won't begin to call myself an expert on the Force, but I don't agree. Nor do I disagree. I can't say for sure. Is there some plausibility for the Force being neutral? Yes. But considering that this theory was disregarded by Luke Skywalker (pretty much the pinnacle of knowledge in-universe), I would disagree.

I'm not going to say definitively which view is correct. Considering that sources indicate that the Jedi's view of the Force is most correct, and the majority of Jedi adhere to the Living Force, I wouldn't be surprised if the Living Force was the most correct view.

Again, I will not say which view is correct or not. And neither should you unless you have a definitive (G-canon) source to back it up. We can make assumptions based on what we see, but in this case, that's what they are- assumptions. The Force is more mysterious than a person's abilities or something of that ilk.

Edit: Technically, George Lucas has said that The Force is light side and dark side. Obviously pointing to the Living Force theory. And I haven't seen this statement to be refuted. w/e...

I won't begin to call myself an expert on the Force, but I don't agree. Nor do I disagree. I can't say for sure. Is there some plausibility for the Force being neutral? Yes. But considering that this theory was disregarded by Luke Skywalker (pretty much the pinnacle of knowledge in-universe), I would disagree.

 

I'm not going to say definitively which view is correct. Considering that sources indicate that the Jedi's view of the Force is most correct, and the majority of Jedi adhere to the Living Force, I wouldn't be surprised if the Living Force was the most correct view.

 

Again, I will not say which view is correct or not. And neither should you unless you have a definitive (G-canon) source to back it up. We can make assumptions based on what we see, but in this case, that's what they are- assumptions. The Force is more mysterious than a person's abilities or something of that ilk.

I'd also be curious to here what exactly he says regarding the Force as such a subject is open to interpretation and even the distinction between Unifying and Living are not clear.

Indeed I'm not actually rejecting the Living Force altogether and I think its equally impossible to reject that Unfiying Force as there is such a thing as destiny, but the Force does also permeate all life.

However I do not believe that the Force is divided into light and dark, to me this illogical. I'm not rejecting the existence of the light side and the dark side, but I believe that is merely another manifestion of the Force defined by the manner in which the user chooses to wield it. The Force itself remains detached from that, after all a darksider draws on the same energy as a lightsider, just in different ways.

I don't think the Force is more attuned to the light or the dark either. The Ones seem to clearly demonstrate this is not the case. And don't hold your breath on that G-Canon statement, its never going to happen. The Force is mysterious I expect it will remain so forever, we just have to develop our own 'beliefs' like everybody else.

Edit: Technically, George Lucas has said that The Force is light side and dark side. Obviously pointing to the Living Force theory. And I haven't seen this statement to be refuted. w/e...

And George has said a lot of things, I think he said something about the dark side being a cancer or something but the Mortis arc TCW (which he is heavily involved in) would suggest that's not quite the case and that a balance is needed. I think with anything regarding that subject, we have to turn our attention to those episodes as the most reliable source.

But again, I don't think this discussion can be reduced to statements and evidence. I think the universe itself with its different beliefs about the Force is encouraging you not to rely on that, and make your own decision as people in-universe would have done.

But again, I don't think this discussion can be reduced to statements and evidence. I think the universe itself with its different beliefs about the Force is encouraging you not to rely on that, and make your own decision as people in-universe would have done.

Of course, and I don't want to make a definitive statement reagrding that. To me, it seems that the Force encompasses of both the Living Force and the Unifying Force theories.

Regardless, I won't make a definitive statement. I think the Force has two sides, but it ultimately comes down to what you do with your life. Your choices inevitably decide your path, the 'dark side' being the more alluring and 'addictive' (for lack of a better word) side, and the 'light side' being the more difficult path.

That's just sides, though. Regarding the other beliefs within the two, I can only say that I would agree with Qui-Gon Jinn.

Of course, and I don't want to make a definitive statement reagrding that. To me, it seems that the Force encompasses of both the Living Force and the Unifying Force theories.

 

Regardless, I won't make a definitive statement. I think the Force has two sides, but it ultimately comes down to what you do with your life. Your choices inevitably decide your path, the 'dark side' being the more alluring and 'addictive' (for lack of a better word) side, and the 'light side' being the more difficult path.

 

That's just sides, though. Regarding the other beliefs within the two, I can only say that I would agree with Qui-Gon Jinn.

But yeah, I agree that the Jedi have the best understanding of the Force. But the Jedi themselves have a very diverse set of beliefs, however they all follow similar lines.

I think thought that this is one of the few subjects, that regardless of what the creators intended, that has no definitive answer, and can be decided for ourselves.

Mmmm... but I like having opinions, and defending them.

 

But yeah, I agree that the Jedi have the best understanding of the Force. But the Jedi themselves have a very diverse set of beliefs, however they all follow similar lines.

 

I think thought that this is one of the few subjects, that regardless of what the creators intended, that has no definitive answer, and can be decided for ourselves.

Agreed.

Wow! Lots more replies to this than I expected when I posted it this morning.

As someone whose familiarity with the deeper part of Force lore is in passing only, I really appreciated getting to read the Unifying/Living Force 'debate' here. Lots of interesting stuff.

Worth noting that I was never suggesting that the Empire -wasn't- guilty of equally bad atrocities; I just didn't think that, with the tone of what limited things I knew about this era's setting, the Old Republic would be so Sith-like in behavior. I should definitely go watch those history videos that one of you linked- Any book suggestions as well for someone who didn't have access to the KOTOR I or II games?

Any book suggestions as well for someone who didn't have access to the KOTOR I or II games?

But in terms of books I would suggest the Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia - its basically what it says on the tin, 'The Definitive Guide to the Epic Conflict.' Packed full of Lore surrounding TOR and touches on events of KOTOR and KOTOR II as well as interesting insight into the future of the story as a whole.