Arcann isn't solely due to the Voss ritual, his path starts when he saves Senya.

 

Vaylin deserved to have more of an effort made to save her, but I still say I think that her ending would be the only way to end her torment.

Maybe, but "death is the only mercy for the mentally ill" has never sat well with me as a story form. It is an awful, harmful thing and always has been and needs to be used less.. If it had been her power that made her the way she was, I would not be so critical of her end. The Force has no real-world equivalent. But, it wasn't her power, at least not alone. They explicitly stated that it was the abuse, the torture, the brainwashing. So the story becomes, "You have to put down the abuse survivor because there's just no coming back from that". And that's being generous, thinking they actually thought there was some kind of compassion involved. I don't see it, and that is a truly awful message.

Another way to end her torment, after all of that, was and is the only appropriate course. They could have come up with something. They could have handled it differently, they could have not forced us to use abusive lines and techniques, they could have given her the agency that they ripped from her and made her a true villain rather than a weird victim/villain hybrid, they could have bloody well handled their little story of familial abuse with an ounce of sensitivity even if she ultimately forces us to kill her. They didn't. And they appear to be perfectly happy with that fact.

Maybe, but "death is the only mercy for the mentally ill" has never sat well with me as a story form. It is an awful, harmful thing and always has been and needs to be used less..

I'm not saying she's sick so they should kill her. I'm saying that due to her inability to want help. She's on a path of self-destruction that cannot be stopped. Is confining her in a padded cage any better?

I'm not saying she's sick so they should kill her. I'm saying that due to her inability to want help. She's on a path of self-destruction that cannot be stopped.

Let me be clear: I would never accuse you of such a thing. You have provided this lovely space and have never been anything but sympathetic. The writers, though? I absolutely think they were.

And then made it worse by making us torture her just that little bit more without a trace of regret, even if they allow us at another point to object to the whole idea. It's disgusting. She forces us to kill her? Fine. We drive her to that point ourselves? No. Just no. I hate the story either way, it's done too much, and the whole "I never wanted to be" thing sounding like a suicidal young women that I have to impale makes it worse, not better. But it could have been borderline acceptable. There were ways to do this that would have been less destructive, even if the results were not what I would have wanted. They did not choose to use them. That is the entirety of what I am saying.

I'd like them to get better, but I don't think it's ever going to happen at this point.

Is confining her in a padded cage any better?

By itself, no. If she's getting help? Maybe. Maybe there would have proven to genuinely be nothing to be done. Maybe we'd get a Jaxo-like email after sparing her (hated that, too) that says there's nothing anyone can do. It would certainly be par for the course. I don't like it, but that's the story they seemed to want to give us.

That's not why I object so strongly. Having to kill her because she's destroying the base and just won't back down and was in pain and self-destructive? I don't like it, but I could have accepted it. Feeling that my character helped to bring about her end by listening to her abuser, who then revealed that with her death that I never wanted I was now forced to follow his plans and take the Throne? And that some thousands or millions more died because of that decision? Not so much.

I understand I just don't think there are as many options to sort out the mess. I totally agree that some of the PC's dialogue is atrocious, However, with regard to the overall narrative I believe it took the most realistic and logical conclusion. I suppose they could have pulled a Batman Begins, "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you," rout. But truthfully that wouldn't have sat any better with me.

I honestly believe we got the proof that Vaylin was beyond help on Nathema, I view it as a tragedy, but then that's how Opera's are, and Star Wars in any incarnation has always been a Space Opera.

I understand I just don't think there are as many options to sort out the mess. I totally agree that some of the PC's dialogue is atrocious, However, with regard to the overall narrative I believe it took the most realistic and logical conclusion. I suppose they could have pulled a Batman Begins, "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you," rout. But truthfully that wouldn't have sat any better with me.

 

I honestly believe we got the proof that Vaylin was beyond help on Nathema, I view it as a tragedy, but then that's how Opera's are, and Star Wars in any incarnation has always been a Space Opera.

Really? I thought Nathema was a smart move by Vaylin. Knowing she had a weakness she went to the source of her torment to remove it.

I don't think logic played any role in this from the player characters perspective. Realistic? Should have captured her while we were raiding her palace.

Really? I thought Nathema was a smart move by Vaylin. Knowing she had a weakness she went to the source of her torment to remove it.

 

I don't think logic played any role in this from the player characters perspective. Realistic? Should have captured her while we were raiding her palace.

Putting her fate and freedom in the hands of the people who did this to her in the first place? I am forced to disagree. She should have found a different way. The cost in lives only compounds that, but she is the villain, whatever my views of the type of villain they decided on.

And, yes, if we'd been allowed to use the command phrase to attempt to capture her rather than humiliate her, and it went wrong, leading to the end, that was just one of many ways to lessen how awful the thing was. Not remove, there were just too many bad decisions about her from beginning to end to resolve appropriately, but lessen.

The fact that she was determined to endure the same torture to be free is proof enough that she's beyond healing. A healthy rational person would never be able to accept those methods again. And it was torture, she was screaming for help. Only her will not to die in Nathema gave her the strength to survive it.

No it doesn't. It shows her going to back to her place of torment to remove a weakness she didn't know she had. Nothing she did gave me the impression she was beyond healing at that point. If anything that would have been the ideal moment to face her in my opinion. Had we confronted her in a place Valkorion couldn't interfere, she may have been more open to talk with the PC.

Looking back at it, I don't think she was even aware we were trailing her movements in that chapter. I don't recall, but I don't think the PC has the option to even bring it up in conversation with Vaylin.

No it doesn't. It shows her going to back to her place of torment to remove a weakness she didn't know she had. Nothing she did gave me the impression she was beyond healing at that point. If anything that would have been the ideal moment to face her in my opinion. Had we confronted her in a place Valkorion couldn't interfere, she may have been more open to talk with the PC.

 

Looking back at it, I don't think she was even aware we were trailing her movements in that chapter. I don't recall, but I don't think the PC has the option to even bring it up in conversation with Vaylin.

Well, I think it's a bit of both. She was desperate and in pain and willing to do that to herself and the lab subjects. So I think it's fair to say that she was being terribly over the top about the whole thing. To the point where she was utterly irrational about who she turned to for help. But, again, why? Because of the Outlander and her father. Now, at the point she is seen plotting this trip, the Outlander hasn't used it, yet, but I don't think she sees them as distinct and really is never given reason to. They go along with him, so it's not like she doesn't have a point.

But the Outlander can be fighting the Valky at every step. Is it PC's fault that Valky hijacked their mind? Nope. All of my bright shiny LS'ers have no desire to kill either Arcann or Vaylin. However, part of the narrative is that PC is not in total control. We can't surrender to Arcann on Asylum, (thanks Valky and Lana) we can't stop Valky from tormenting either, children and boxes us into a corner where using "kneel before the dragon of Zakuul" is our only choice to reduce the casualties.

The only character who isn't a victim in KOTE-KOTET is Valky.

But the Outlander can be fighting the Valky at every step. Is it PC's fault that Valky hijacked their mind? Nope. All of my bright shiny LS'ers have no desire to kill either Arcann or Vaylin. However, part of the narrative is that PC is not in total control. We can't surrender to Arcann on Asylum, (thanks Valky and Lana) we can't stop Valky from tormenting either, children and boxes us into a corner where using "kneel before the dragon of Zakuul" is our only choice to reduce the casualties.

 

The only character who isn't a victim in KOTE-KOTET is Valky.

Some actions were beyond out control, I'll agree to that, however, there was some that our characters just made without thinking it through, such as the option between Torian and Vette.

The fact that she was determined to endure the same torture to be free is proof enough that she's beyond healing. A healthy rational person would never be able to accept those methods again. And it was torture, she was screaming for help. Only her will not to die in Nathema gave her the strength to survive it.

I can't agree with that. A healthy person will judge the costs. I'd go through excruciating torment to be free of that monster, because it would be worth the price. The only differences are that I would never trust Jarak or allow the experiments. I would go to Nathema, for that matter, and end them in a rather permanent fashion. But, we're meant to hate this person. So it goes.

I mean, she clearly ISN'T healthy, but I can't accept her being willing to go through the torture as proof that she is beyond healing. The corpses scattered about because of it? Maybe. But we've seen and successfully saved several people that have done such terrible things, and she always struck me as under a degree of control much like them. Vitiate loves that.

Honestly, I'd just hide out until the Outlander and "Father" were dead. The phrase as described doesn't seem like it works for anyone else, and the Fleet can do the job just fine.

But the Outlander can be fighting the Valky at every step. Is it PC's fault that Valky hijacked their mind? Nope.

Well, it wouldn't be, except that, due to their "perfect hero narrative", it's never clear that he IS exercising that level of influence. There is never a mention that we're not doing exactly what we've chosen to do. We can talk a good game to him, and maybe that fact might indicate that he IS in control when we then turn around and do it, anyway, but we consistently claim that he's not influencing us. Which might be his influence, again, but after he's gone, we never express regret for doing any of these things, like everyone else he's ever controlled does.

Now, is yours a reasonable interpretation? Absolutely. In fact, if this overused "crazy woman in the attic that dies at the end" ableist story isn't going to be overturned, I'd prefer it. Valkorion being the one that actually abused and murdered his daughter? I could accept that. He's exactly that kind of monster. But, because of the type of story, I really want to be explicitly told that was what was happening, and we never are. If I'm to watch my character mock and ultimately kill an abuse survivor, without any actual choice (some characters would, anyway), I want to know that there is something like that going on rather than having to infer it. There are just some things I don't believe we should have to read between the lines for.

If you play it as LS, i don't think Valkorion directly influences you, he just influence people and events around you so that you have not much choice but to play by his rules.

Nearly every time you're trying to reach out to either Arcann or Vaylin, he shows up in front of them and provoke them so that they'd not be willing to listen to what you're saying.

He does that with Arcann once when you surrender to him on Asylum and show up on Voss when you're trying to get Arcann to join you, he even tries once more on Zakuul when Arcann is willing to join the Alliance.

He does that on multiple occasions too when you're trying to get Vaylin to listen to you (on the Gravestone, Zakuul and Odessen at least).

True but the stress of dealing with him is the only way I can justify some of the downright mean LS dialogue options. Really, that does bug me with both Vaylin and Arcann. Valky might not have a grip on your actions, but think of the stress, and exhaustion of fighting him and a war.

Yeah that's a good point.

Maybe his hold on your body is somewhat weakening you too, making it harder for you to resist his influence.

If you play it as LS, i don't think Valkorion directly influences you, he just influence people and events around you so that you have not much choice but to play by his rules.

 

Nearly every time you're trying to reach out to either Arcann or Vaylin, he shows up in front of them and provoke them so that they'd not be willing to listen to what you're saying.

He does that with Arcann once when you surrender to him on Asylum and show up on Voss when you're trying to get Arcann to join you, he even tries once more on Zakuul when Arcann is willing to join the Alliance.

He does that on multiple occasions too when you're trying to get Vaylin to listen to you (on the Gravestone, Zakuul and Odessen at least).

If you go DS, I think the only time he has any power over the PC is during the battle on Asylum. After that he doesn't interfere.

If you go DS, I think the only time he has any power over the PC is during the battle on Asylum. After that he doesn't interfere.

But as a DS character, you're probably easier to directly influence, and more likely to go along with what he wants (if you take every DS option that is), considering, you let him have enough hold on your body that he's actually able to take over on Asylum, and afterwards, you kill every member of his familly he wants you to kill.

But as a DS character, you're probably easier to directly influence, and more likely to go along with what he wants (if you take every DS option that is), considering, you let him have enough hold on your body that he's actually able to take over on Asylum, and afterwards, you kill every member of his familly he wants you to kill.

I suppose it's how you look at it. My character in question is themed to the dark side but has never allowed Valkorion to influence her decision making process as far as she was aware. She would have tried (given the chance) to team up with Vaylin as I head canon her as having a similar past to Vaylin's but not as extreme. (Sith Inquisitor was a slave)

If you play it as LS, i don't think Valkorion directly influences you, he just influence people and events around you so that you have not much choice but to play by his rules.

Yeah, that.

I suppose it's how you look at it. My character in question is themed to the dark side but has never allowed Valkorion to influence her decision making process as far as she was aware. She would have tried (given the chance) to team up with Vaylin as I head canon her as having a similar past to Vaylin's but not as extreme. (Sith Inquisitor was a slave)

Yep, that's why i said "if you take every DS choice"

Actually all my DS characters become more neutral once they start KOTFE, because honestly taking every DS choice does not fit well in that story for me, because then you're a bloodthirsty idiotic tyrant wannabe, so people thinking that said character would be better than Arcann and Vaylin must be seriously blind, and considering when taking all DS choice, you're just playing exactly how Valkorion wants you too, it should be near to impossible to win over him at the end of the day.

The only DS choice i make on DS toons are punching Koth and Saresh and killing Lorman and Saresh (and probably Vinn when i'll be there on my DS toons).

Actually all my DS characters become more neutral once they start KOTFE, because honestly taking every DS choice does not fit well in that story for me, because then you're a bloodthirsty idiotic tyrant wannabe

I just loved that description. It is so true. I've had a couple of all DS characters that were pretty much all-in on being awful people, but I never got the feeling that they were idiots before KotFE. Some times, a choice to be bad was just too stupid and I'd take the neutral one, but not in the same way as the new expansions from what I've seen.

I just loved that description. It is so true. I've had a couple of all DS characters that were pretty much all-in on being awful people, but I never got the feeling that they were idiots before KotFE. Some times, a choice to be bad was just too stupid and I'd take the neutral one, but not in the same way as the new expansions from what I've seen.

I played it only once going full DS with a lvl 65 SW token, and gosh, the guys ended up being so stupid that i felt really bad going through KOTET like that...

I don't even know how anyone in a right state of mind would think that letting the guy lead the Alliance would be a good idea to begin with, and then when same leader goes on a rampage on civilians and even his own followers, nobody think that still following him might not be very clever ?

So now, i just take the DS choices that don't feel like my character is an idiot.

Well i don't take LS choices when they feel stupid or like my character is like a Bisounours (Care Bear for english speakers), they may be LS but they're no fools either.

From @black_vinil, hopefully I'll get it right this time. I am just the postal service:

Vaylin is worthy to be redeemed and whether it was possible to save her? - that's 2 different questions .

 

First - the discussions about redemption can go on indefinitely, because people never come to one consensus and it is their right. The same with Arcann - he can be redeemed, but I'm absolutely sure there, will always be those who consider him to unworthy of redemption.

 

Second - 9 chapters of KOTET - this enough to buy out Arcann, because his path\story\motivation has been fully shown (although where was this bald "onepunchforbrother man" from 2 to 6 chapters - it is not known, this was not shown to us, BUT this not enough to give such an opportunity to Vaylin - because of the compressed timeline of the plot and quick of the narrative, her story buildi so tragically one-sided - it's not fair but it's already not be changed.

 

But I am sure that it is not too late, and we can compensate for this loss with this opportunity -

 

… …

 

So let's do it, shall we? And about disputes can be to speak forever

From @black_vinil, hopefully I'll get it right this time. I am just the postal service:

Promoted to the Order of Zildrog's mail division I see.

I'm all for purchasing characters as companions as I said in the thread.

I played it only once going full DS with a lvl 65 SW token, and gosh, the guys ended up being so stupid that i felt really bad going through KOTET like that...

I don't even know how anyone in a right state of mind would think that letting the guy lead the Alliance would be a good idea to begin with, and then when same leader goes on a rampage on civilians and even his own followers, nobody think that still following him might not be very clever ?

 

So now, i just take the DS choices that don't feel like my character is an idiot.

Well i don't take LS choices when they feel stupid or like my character is like a Bisounours (Care Bear for english speakers), they may be LS but they're no fools either.

I don't pick the options base on force alignment, normally I'll look for the once that makes the most sense to the character I'm on at the time. There have been a few scenarios when both options in the dialog wheel have made me think my characters intelligence rapidly dropped.