Good Idea. Also remove ranked comms from vendors so people who solo queue can't get conqueror unless they play ranked. Works for you? I mean why solo and casual players should be rewarded with best pvp gear if they don't want to play against better teams? Put rating on conqueror to force people into playing ranked. You don't like ranked? Don't play them but enjoy your partisan set, the difference between 2 sets is minimal anyway.

What would gear gaps accomplish? It's a lot faster to get Conquerer playing Rated anyway. Why do you absolutely need a status quo over the solo queuers? I know I don't. I wouldn't mind more recognition for getting a good rating, though. Cool title, cool mount (the current rated mount is insulting), cool emote. Would be more than enough for others to look up to you without envy and hate.

Unless you enjoy it, of course.

This is dumb... I refuse to read 278 pages of QQing. I'm not a big PVPer, but when I do I run with my guild. This is an MMO and as such a social game. I'd prefer running with my friends online. We're skilled, and we don't always win... We don't... We run into brick walls quite often on pug groups we just can't kill either because they have 3-4 healers or 3-4 snipers... Or worse, 3 healers 3 snipers... (it's happened). All depends on the group. If you don't like premades stop playing a social game.

Hurrah!

This is dumb... I refuse to read 278 pages of QQing. I'm not a big PVPer, but when I do I run with my guild. This is an MMO and as such a social game. I'd prefer running with my friends online. We're skilled, and we don't always win... We don't... We run into brick walls quite often on pug groups we just can't kill either because they have 3-4 healers or 3-4 snipers... Or worse, 3 healers 3 snipers... (it's happened). All depends on the group. If you don't like premades stop playing a social game.

What's dumb is misrepresenting the argument.

No one is saying ban premades, but if premades were pitted against other premades by the queue system, how would that make this game any less social? Seems to me the argument should be, if your premade doesn't like playing other premades, stop playing a social team game eh? Or is it only a social game when you and your "friends" are on easymode ROFL pugstomping?

What's dumb is misrepresenting the argument.

No one is saying ban premades, but if premades were pitted against other premades by the queue system, how would that make this game any less social? Seems to me the argument should be, if your premade doesn't like playing other premades, stop playing a social team game eh? Or is it only a social game when you and your "friends" are on easymode ROFL pugstomping?

Well, think. Say the 'pubs have a 4-person premade and the imps have a 3-person premade. There are also 5 solo 'pubs and 9 solo imps in the queue. What would you have the queue do? Put the premades in a 4v3 (warzone shutdown...) and the soloers in a 5v8? Or just do what it does now and put the 4 person premade together with 4 of the solo 'pubs on one side and the 3-person premade together with 5 of the solo imps on the other side? Yes, it might be nice if the queue made some sort of effort to get a balanced match instead of straight up first in first out, but at the end, you still need at least enough of the first in first out to ensure people aren't waiting in the queue for hours just for being a damage instead of a healer or tank, as happens in PvE.

However, a lot of people (not you personally) are saying premades should only be allowed in ranked, which requires a full 8-person team (you can't go in with a 7-person team even if you want to and don't mind the disadvantage -- the queue won't let you without exactly 8), and generally casting nasty aspersions about characters of people who queue with premades outside of ranked (including one insane person who implied that we are the sort of people who join gangs and steal kid's lunch money in real life). Those sorts of nasty aspersions are what we are replying to when we talk about certain people in this thread being terrible PvPers who are just crying about how unfair it is that they lost. Not you personally.

Well, think. Say the 'pubs have a 4-person premade and the imps have a 3-person premade. There are also 5 solo 'pubs and 9 solo imps in the queue. What would you have the queue do?

If it were up to me I would have the queue system put group vs group as often as is feasible withing a certain time frame, and then fill in with pugs, and then rest of pugs facing each other. So maybe a 4 man team +2 man team + 2 pugs vs 3 man team +2 man team + 3 pugs and then teams of 8 pugs vs 8 pugs would happen. I would add cross server queuing to increase the player selection size. So yes, in "my" system it would sometimes happen solo players would be facing a premade, but most likely have a premade on their team as well.

Are all premades equal? Of course not. Would there still be mismatches and awful butchery? Of course there would be. But I think there would, on the whole, be more even competition overall. And I think that players would think the system would be treating them more fairly. And that is very important, even if it is only a perception.

However, a lot of people (not you personally) are saying premades should only be allowed in ranked, which requires a full 8-person team (you can't go in with a 7-person team even if you want to and don't mind the disadvantage -- the queue won't let you without exactly 8), and generally casting nasty aspersions about characters of people who queue with premades outside of ranked (including one insane person who implied that we are the sort of people who join gangs and steal kid's lunch money in real life). Those sorts of nasty aspersions are what we are replying to when we talk about certain people in this thread being terrible PvPers who are just crying about how unfair it is that they lost. Not you personally.

Straw man. To me, it appears you are trying to argue against an imaginary false argument because your argument fares a lot better against this fiction than it does against a valid complaint. Repeat:

Not what we're asking for. Just want the toggle for a solo-only que. Creates three tiers:

 

1. Solo

2. Casual Group

3. Ranked.

 

There are plenty of premades in non ranked now, there will be plenty of premades in non-ranked then, the only difference is they will HAVE to play each other. And we won't have to play them.

If it were up to me I would have the queue system put group vs group as often as is feasible withing a certain time frame, and then fill in with pugs, and then rest of pugs facing each other. So maybe a 4 man team +2 man team + 2 pugs vs 3 man team +2 man team + 3 pugs and then teams of 8 pugs vs 8 pugs would happen. I would add cross server queuing to increase the player selection size. So yes, in "my" system it would sometimes happen solo players would be facing a premade, but most likely have a premade on their team as well.

Are all premades equal? Of course not. Would there still be mismatches and awful butchery? Of course there would be. But I think there would, on the whole, be more even competition overall. And I think that players would think the system would be treating them more fairly. And that is very important, even if it is only a perception.

Well, I think *everyone* would like cross server queues. But until we get that going, some of us already frequently experience queue times of 45 minutes or longer, and do not want queue times increased any more.

Also, saying that if one side gets a premade, the other side should too (in a world of cross-server queues where there are actually a broad selection of premades and soloers to choose from) is not the same as saying soloers should never be in the same match as premaders, as certain people in this thread (e.g. TonyDragonflame) are clearly supporting. I could agree with the former (only if there were cross-server queues and priority was given to queue times over perfect matches) but not the latter.

Just roflstomped a Republic Premade, all 3 nodes in NC Warzone.

Good times.

This is from a post I made a few pages ago.

Which I never responded to directly, so far as I recall. Responses to different people, who are making different arguments, are not responses to your argument.

You have now made the two arguments against premades being queued against other premades that I summerized.

And I am still suggesting the same solution.

Now who's making strawman arguments? I just said I'm fairly sure *everyone* would like cross-server queues. If there were cross-server queues, I'm sure many things could be done to improve the match-making system. But there aren't cross-server queues right now. The fact that I don't think they will exist any time in the forseeable future doesn't mean I wouldn't like them, but think that needs to be a priority over messing with the matchmaking system in ways that, without a cross-server queue, might easily result in 3+ hour queues for some people. For that matter, we already have 3+ hour queues frequently in the morning. Really, after waiting 3 or more hours for the queue to pop, I'm happy to face any team, no matter how much stronger they are, and I think most of the morning PvPers on my server feel the same. Getting some semblance of a balanced match should always be secondary to getting the queue to pop, period. You get half-credit for losing badly. A bit more for losing a close match. You get nothing if the queue never pops to begin with.

Exly is not only a worthless PvPer, but a worthless human being who will make up any accusation out of thin air against people who disagree with him. It may not be your argument, but I didn't mention you by name in that post, did I?

This response is either highly ironic, or extremely inappropriate, if it were intended to be sarcastic/parodic in nature.

This response is either highly ironic, or extremely inappropriate, if it were intended to be sarcastic/parodic in nature.

I mean I do not take being kindly to being accused of being the sort of person who joins gangs in real life and steals people's lunch money, and of course, I will respond with extreme sarcasm to any person (not you obviously) who makes such accusations.

I mean I do not take being kindly to being accused of being the sort of person who joins gangs in real life and steals people's lunch money, and of course, I will respond with extreme sarcasm to any person (not you obviously) who makes such accusations.

This kind of response is very frequent when someone voices the feeling injustice committed towards themselves, and this voice meets nothing but mockery. Aggression is only natural when others don't realize (or don't want to realize) that they, willingly or not, participate in what this person considers injustice towards them.

The "elite" are perfectly fine, existing in their comfort zone, they don't want change anything, and some "jerk" comes and tells them that their comfort is achieved at his expense, and is very vocal about it. They send him off, and his indignation only rises, because, to him, it's now not only injustice, but a malicious plot. Story of humanity, really. "Das Kapital" classics by good-old Marx.

Just roflstomped a Republic Premade, all 3 nodes in NC Warzone.

 

Good times.

I always thought that if we only play games for fun, then it's pretty hard to top stomping a premade who thought they were supposed to be stomping people. I realize a lot of premades mentally block out any losses but you can't win on a scale of 'fun' against a bunch of guys who can block out any painful memories.

This kind of response is very frequent when someone voices the feeling injustice committed towards themselves, and this voice meets nothing but mockery. Aggression is only natural when others don't realize (or don't want to realize) that they, willingly or not, participate in what this person considers injustice towards them.

 

The "elite" are perfectly fine, existing in their comfort zone, they don't want change anything, and some "jerk" comes and tells them that their comfort is achieved at his expense, and is very vocal about it. They send him off, and his indignation only rises, because, to him, it's now not only injustice, but a malicious plot. Story of humanity, really. "Das Kapital" classics by good-old Marx.

If you can always be that understanding when someone is accusing you of being the sort of person to join gangs / beat up deaf people / steal kids' lunch money / do other nasty violent stuff in real life, then you're a saint. Metaphorically speaking.

If you can always be that understanding when someone is accusing you of being the sort of person to join gangs / beat up deaf people / steal kids' lunch money / do other nasty violent stuff in real life, then you're a saint. Metaphorically speaking.

He's exaggerating, but from his point of view what's happening to him is pretty much abuse, at least psychological. After getting rolled into concrete by a premade several times in a row the only thing he can do is stop queueing and hope that he's put into a match with a more even playing field next time.

As I said, I do both - and pugs can do great vs premades. Just this evening on my Commando (respecced to healer from gunner for a change) we beat an Imperial raid with 5-6 players from the same guild (widely known PvP guild - not the best, but runs decent rated teams) in it several times in a row. However, the worst of the negative experience is often remembered the most vividly. Drop-point camping, coordinated smash teams with heal support, root grenade cycling - stuff that obliterates an average pug with no chance of retaliation, leaving nothing but a feeling of frustration and helplessness. Nobody likes feeling helpless. Nobody. Even if it's "just a game".

He's exaggerating, but from his point of view what's happening to him is pretty much abuse, at least psychological. After getting rolled into concrete by a premade several times in a row the only thing he can do is stop queueing and hope that he's put into a match with a more even playing field next time.

That may be his point of view, but he's wrong, and it doesn't give him the right to randomly slander large groups of people who did nothing to him that he didn't agree to in the first place, that he had within his capability to withdraw consent from at any time, and which never caused any bodily injury. If PvP is causing him such great mental distress, he doesn't have to participate. For people who want to win all the time, there is PvE. Preferably solo PvE at that. He may as well go to a paintball match and then complain about a whole bunch of people shooting paintballs at him all at once (in a way that is within the rules of the given arena). No one is assaulting him on the street. Winning a competitive sport or other game, within the rules, after your opponent has agreed to the game, is not the same as picking a fight with some poor person minding his own business crossing the street, or else there would be criminal assault charges left and right against football players from other football players.

As I said, I do both - and pugs can do great vs premades. Just this evening on my Commando (respecced to healer from gunner for a change) we beat an Imperial raid with 5-6 players from the same guild (widely known PvP guild - not the best, but runs decent rated teams) in it several times in a row. However, the worst of the negative experience is often remembered the most vividly. Drop-point camping, coordinated smash teams with heal support, root grenade cycling - stuff that obliterates an average pug with no chance of retaliation, leaving nothing but a feeling of frustration and helplessness. Nobody likes feeling helpless. Nobody. Even if it's "just a game".

To truly enjoy PvP, you (generic you, not you personally) have to accept that it has it's ups and downs. There are times you will win gloriously, cap every single door in Voidstar personally, not to mention extend the bridge, disable the forcefield, and access the datacore as well, and there are times you will spend most of your time behind a 4-tick door because it takes the enemy team all of 10 seconds to kill you every time you come out. If some people can't take the good with the bad, well, they should probably find another hobby. There's no way to make everyone happy in PvP -- if I deliberately held back to be "nice" to an opponent, my own team would yell at me for not trying my hardest (if they knew), and it's not worth it to even try. With PvP, you can't always get what you want, but you can learn to want (or at least accept) what you get... and if you can't, then PvP isn't for you. Perhaps nobody likes feeling helpless, but you and only you can make yourself feel helpless. Someone who truly enjoys PvP, in such a situation where their team is the one getting obliterated, will just keep on doing their personal best even if the rest of the team has given up, or perhaps, if they are a creative spirit, try some practical joke, like throwing smuggle (shared stealth) over all the defenders sitting at the node gathering defender points, so when a member of the opposing team sees it apparently unguarded and comes over to try to cap it, everyone can ambush them from stealth. Or I've heard of people with pulls, while getting rez-camped, pulling members of the enemy team into the rez to cause insta-death. There are many ways someone who truly enjoys PvP can avoid feeling helpless even while losing. The only person who can truly make someone feel helpless is himself.

If PvP is causing him such great mental distress, he doesn't have to participate. For people who want to win all the time, there is PvE.

Again, the definition of PVP is not "being forced to play with premades." You may say that's not what you're saying, but that's exactly what you're saying.

You're including premades as part of the definition of PVP. He doesn't want to "not play pvp." He wants to have a queue where he DOESN'T HAVE TO PLAY WITH PREMADES.

PVP ≠ premades.

This is the dumbest argument ever.

If you're a good player but you're still getting rolled by pre-mades, organise yourself and group up with some other good players so that you actually have a chance.

If you're a bad player, you're losing because you suck. That's not the fault of the other team. It's your fault. Suck it up and L2P, or quit altogether and go back to PvEasy.

This is the dumbest argument ever.

 

If you're a good player but you're still getting rolled by pre-mades, organise yourself and group up with some other good players so that you actually have a chance.

 

If you're a bad player, you're losing because you suck. That's not the fault of the other team. It's your fault. Suck it up and L2P, or quit altogether and go back to PvEasy.

It's so simple, yet so many choose to QQ anyway.

Strange how most of those complaining about premades don't display any information about who they are or where they play in their sigs. That would really interest me.

 

Anyway, I'd like to ask all you stalwart anti-premaders some questions, out of sheer curiosity.

First of all, have you ever even been invited to a group of other people to do pvp with them ? Have you ever played pvp in a premade group with other people AT ALL, or have you only been solo-queueing since you started playing? Or did you convert from a premader to a pugger after you discovered how 'wrong' the current system is? If someone DID ask you to join them, did you decline out of sheer nobility so as not to be a part of an 'advantageous' premade group yourself?

 

Do you know how many guilds there are out there and how many of them form premades - and can you honestly say they are all top-level quality? How often a night do you approximately lose as a pure PUG against the same premades over and over again? How often do you get matched up with a premade on your OWN team? How can you tell that you DON'T have a premade on your own team? What exactly is so incredibly scary about premades on the other team that leads you to promote the separation of queues so badly? How often have you lost matches because you were up against such overpowering premades as opposed to simply having total nubcakes on your own team?

 

Then, where do you get the notion that every premade out there is somehow part of a ranked team, or out for high-level competitive pvp? Have you ever actually PLAYED ranked at all? Have you ever organised it, discussed a good group composition, played against other top teams? Do you know which premades on your server even DO ranked?

 

This will make an interesting read, I'll wager. I'm tired of hearing the same arguments over and over again, I just really want to know where all you people are coming from. And please, if you can refrain from using the words 'facerolling', 'pugstomping' and 'people with rl issues' in you answers, it would be very much appreciated.

I'll bite.

Back before ftp on Ebon Hawk, my wife and I were considered among the best pvpers on the server. When we unsubbed around the time that queues started popping three or four times a day, some in our faction practically begged us to stick it out. We were frequently offered teams (my wife is an excellent healer) and even tried out a couple of the big pvp guilds at that time. We rarely if ever joined premades, and we invariably left the pvp guilds after a short while.

Why?

Empathy, desire for true sport, and human decency. My wife and I hated rolling in premades because we always roflstomped the competition and that leads to boring, boring matches. We don't enjoy curbstomping randoms into the dust. For others who ran premades, that was the juice. They loved laughing about it in ops chat, they loved spawn camping, they loved blaming the 8 randoms who just got crushed for their own defeat. We absolutely despise that culture and want nothing to do with it.

There are other human beings behind those characters getting stomped match after match and gradually realizing that their chosen hobby is not going to be fun at all tonight... in fact, it's making their day worse. I don't want to be the culprit for that, even if they're complete strangers.

Call me a carebear. We're all human beings behind the monitor.

On top of that, we simply find pvp without competition to be dull. If I go to a gym down the street to spar, I'm not going to ask a 12 year old to climb into the ring with me. I'd want a dude my size and relative ability.

The rest of your questions are sort of... off topic. People aren't saying that premades shouldn't be allowed to play; they should. It is an MMO after all. Most of us here just simply don't see any compelling reasons that a) pugs should be forced to play against you instead of having their own more casual queue, and b) why premades are so up in arms about the idea of allowing that option.

I've still yet to read any sort of argument from a pro-premader that explains how their fun is going to be negatively impacted by allowing more casual, balance-seeking solo players to opt out of facing premades. If your fun is derived from a desire for competition, why do you feel you NEED to be able to face pugs to have fun?

And yes, I do agree that none of this will ever change until BW sorts out cross server queues because there simply isn't a big enough pvp population right now. But the check-box for solo only would go a long way toward making that community bigger (modern MMOs are targeted far more toward solo, casual players than the huge guilds/groups of old), and isn't that what everyone here wants in the end?

That may be his point of view, but he's wrong, and it doesn't give him the right to randomly slander large groups of people who did nothing to him that he didn't agree to in the first place, that he had within his capability to withdraw consent from at any time, and which never caused any bodily injury. If PvP is causing him such great mental distress, he doesn't have to participate. For people who want to win all the time, there is PvE. Preferably solo PvE at that.

To truly enjoy PvP, you (generic you, not you personally) have to accept that it has it's ups and downs.<.........> The only person who can truly make someone feel helpless is himself.

I get where you're coming from, but this is what really happens when my guild group queues and finds themselves against an average PuG. This is not PvP. This is bullsith.

I'm a stern advocate of an even playing field. Red Wings should play with Mighty Ducks. Naturally I can just "go play ranked" (which isn't always available, but that's a matter for another discussion), but that does not exactly stop other premades from queueing regs.

I get where you're coming from, but this is what really happens when my guild group queues and finds themselves against an average PuG. This is not PvP. This is bullsith.

 

I'm a stern advocate of an even playing field. Red Wings should play with Mighty Ducks. Naturally I can just "go play ranked" (which isn't always available, but that's a matter for another discussion), but that does not exactly stop other premades from queueing solo.

I hear ya, been getting hit more frequntly on my server with double premaides, when there is a fewer pool of players in que we usually get stuck against them. BW seriously needs to seperate the pugs from the premades and open up cross server ques.

Is this one of the largest threads ever to not receive a dev response?

I'm really curious how they feel about this.

Is this one of the largest threads ever to not receive a dev response?

 

I'm really curious how they feel about this.

If they want our business, for players like me, they're really going to have to.