I've seen 4 people in Tionese gear steamroll HMLI and 4 others in Black Hole gear fail on LR-5 consistently.

 

How is that not a perfect example of skill > gear?

 

That's not a good example. Skill + gear = profit. You can't say you can have one w/out the other. 8 people who are perfect at their classes cannot do something such as HM EC. There's only so much you can do before Math wins. At the same time, you could take 8 people in BiS 63's who don't know how to play their classes at all and wipe all the time on SM EV.

 

It's all about percentages. Could someone who plays half as well as someone else complete something if they have twice the stats (damage, health, stats, etc.)?

This has always bothered me and it is just another glaring example of how bioware still does not understand mmos.

The problem was that you could RE someone else's gear so people were just swapping recipes making all mods, enh, etc. available within the first couple weeks.

 

The problem is a bit more complicated than that. You already can't RE and learn the schematic from a piece of gear made by someone else. The problem is that, for mods, armoring, hilt/barrel, and enh, as soon as you place it in a piece of gear, it loses its previous identity and, as such, no longer remembers who made it. As such, rather than being a mod that was made by someone else, it becomes a mod without a creator, just like all of the world drops and stuff that drops from bosses.

 

The people complaining about their ability to maintain a monopoly would have their problems solved if BW could actually figure out how to preserve the creator information for a piece of gear that is currently inside of another piece of gear (I'm reasonably confident that the actual programmatic mechanism used is that a mod is destroyed when it enters a piece of moddable gear, which then gains the relevant "buff" in the form of the mod; when you remove the mod, it then simply creates a separate item in your inventory; essentially, creator information is never preserved because the mods don't actually exist within shells but rather exist to tell shells to create informational constructs within them). It would probably increase the storage requirements (by a lot, since they're having to track player information for every single mod slot), so it might not be something they're keen to do.

... Basically, the game requires both skill *and* gear to succeed at the top tier of content. ...

I do agree with this, I've just seen so many arguments that state that "such and such gear is required to beat x content"

 

When these statements are exaggerated (you need 58/61 to finish HM LI) it bothers me, as it means that someone thinks that skill DOESN'T matter and all you need is better gear.

One comment, three headshots. That's skill right there.

 

 

The game is laughably easy 95% of the time. It's harder in the last 5% only becase of lower enrage timers and heavier hits. Rinse and repeat until you get the mechanic down, gg. Skill requirement (in a game that emphasises gear, has medpacks and other buffs available at any point in time) is moderate at best.

Have you mastered HM EC? HM TfB? NM EC?

 

If the 95% laughably easy you're referring to is the leveling experience, surely you are absolutely correct. If you're saying that 95% of end-game operations is laughably easy, I disagree.

 

For example, tanking Kephess (off the top of my head) takes skill. It just does. It has very little to do with medpacks, enrage timers and heavier hits. It's about tank swaps, where to drop breath, when to hit your cooldowns, when to taunt.

 

It's a ton of fun if you're with people that are skilled. It's an awful grind with people that aren't.

That's not a good example. Skill + gear = profit. You can't say you can have one w/out the other. ...

I don't disagree with the basic point you're making, but I still think that HM LI is in fact a great example.

 

It is possible to undergear mechanics-based content in TOR. It's practically impossible to underskill that same content.

 

Unskilled players cannot do HM LI even wearing full Dread Guard. It doesn't matter how much mitigation you have, how many cooldowns you pop, how much hp you have and how much +power your healer has. Miss too many incinerates without a cleanse? Tank dies, group wipes.

 

Another example would be HM EC. Give a skilled group of players Rakata and they will finish it. Give an unskilled group of Players full Dread Guard and they will wipe.

 

Skill will let you undergear content. Gear will only let you underskill EASY content.

It is possible to undergear mechanics-based content in TOR. It's practically impossible to underskill that same content.

I will agree that it is impossible for a underskilled group, but many underskilled players are pulled through content.

 

The groups’ skill base is more important than individual players in end game content. Anyone that thinks NIM EC or HM TfB is a breeze; need to take a moment before their next operation to thank their entire group because you are an extremely lucky person to get with such great players. You may be just as good as or even better than any of them, but you are not going to carry average players through that content and still think it is easy. I know, I play with two very good groups and the difference between healing them and other groups is extreme. Players that know the mechanics know their class, their role, the rotation and enough about the other classes to know your capabilities makes the game both fun and at times extremely easy to play. Do the same content with 7 random pugs and you will quickly figure out you are not as great as you think you are.

I don't disagree with the basic point you're making, but I still think that HM LI is in fact a great example.

 

It is possible to undergear mechanics-based content in TOR. It's practically impossible to underskill that same content.

 

Unskilled players cannot do HM LI even wearing full Dread Guard. It doesn't matter how much mitigation you have, how many cooldowns you pop, how much hp you have and how much +power your healer has. Miss too many incinerates without a cleanse? Tank dies, group wipes.

 

Another example would be HM EC. Give a skilled group of players Rakata and they will finish it. Give an unskilled group of Players full Dread Guard and they will wipe.

 

Skill will let you undergear content. Gear will only let you underskill EASY content.

It's just as fair to say, "Unskilled players cannot do HM LI even wearing full Dread Guard," as it is to say "Skilled players cannot do NiM EC wearing full Tionese gear." And HM EC was balanced around Rakata gear, that's why it was clearable in the first week. Remember when guilds who weren't in full BiS with full augments tried to do NiM EC on the PTS and got rolled? Yeah, that's cuz of gear. You can't tell me there was a skill problem.

 

Skill compensates for lower than average gear just as much as gear compensates for lower than average skill. If Tionese gives you about 60% as full Dreadguard you're telling me what someone who is 60% as skilled as the best skilled ToR players can't do HM LI in gulld BiS gear? I highly doubt that.

 

You're assuming that Tionese is considered 0-level gear so you're comparing it to 0-level skill (i.e. "Derp, Derp, I don't understand what aggro means."). That's not a fair comparison.

...

 

Skill compensates for lower than average gear just as much as gear compensates for lower than average skill. If Tionese gives you about 60% as full Dreadguard you're telling me what someone who is 60% as skilled as the best skilled ToR players can't do HM LI in gulld BiS gear? I highly doubt that.

 

....

Honestly, I suspect we're probably mostly on the same page but arguing semantics.

 

I'm not trying to say that gear isn't required and necessary. But my experience has shown me there are a vast number of players that try to overgear content instead of becoming better players. This only works to a point.

 

It's easy to overgear T1 HM FP, or overgear HM EV or overgear HM KP. Yet these don't have difficult mechanics. It is much harder to overgear HM LI. It can be done, but I've seen players in mostly Black Hole complain that "LR-5 and Sav Rak are too hard please nerf".

 

It's MUCH harder to overgear HM EC. At what level of gear would the amount of damage, healing and mitigation overcome the inability to tank swap on T/Z? How much armor and health would you need to survive defensive systems when someone aoe's the shield to death? How about failing to interrupt an overload in the minefield? Failing to move out of the purple circle from Breath?

 

I posit that there are boss encounters in EC and TfB that you simply cannot pass by substituting gear for skill. And yet, I've seen players thrilled to figure out ways to underman or undergear end-game raids because they have skill to make up the difference.

 

My argument is this: High gear with low skill is a dead-end. High skill with low gear isn't. Not only can you go farther, but you are more likely to obtain the gear you need for that content that has actual minimum gear requirements.

 

So while it is fair to say that both gear and skill are required, I firmly believe that of the two SKILL is more important.

 

I'd happily bring a talented and skilled player's undergeared alt through any operation, over someone who bought 63 gear at the vendor yet keeps missing interrupts, failing to move out of circles and doesn't know how to play their class properly.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Khevar

It's MUCH harder to overgear HM EC. At what level of gear would the amount of damage, healing and mitigation overcome the inability to tank swap on T/Z? How much armor and health would you need to survive defensive systems when someone aoe's the shield to death? How about failing to interrupt an overload in the minefield? Failing to move out of the purple circle from Breath?

 

I posit that there are boss encounters in EC and TfB that you simply cannot pass by substituting gear for skill. And yet, I've seen players thrilled to figure out ways to underman or undergear end-game raids because they have skill to make up the difference.

 

My argument is this: High gear with low skill is a dead-end. High skill with low gear isn't. Not only can you go farther, but you are more likely to obtain the gear you need for that content that has actual minimum gear requirements.

 

So while it is fair to say that both gear and skill are required, I firmly believe that of the two SKILL is more important.

 

That's what I've been saying:)

I like how swtor has done gearing so far over wow. I have made a good 50+ mil crafting lvl 61 and 63 mods for players across my server. While it may take some of the drive to run operations out, most people still run them to have fun and earn bragging rights. A majority of the people who I craft for still struggle to clear hm ec. This all just makes me more satisfied that I got the Warstalker title and get to reap extra rewards(credits) from my hard work. It also makes my guild less reliant on 1 player who won a token, and more on a crafter to continue playing the game, and since I'm an officer and enjoy playing with my guildies my recipes wont go on ice anytime soon. Edited February 6, 2013 by sithheroes

This old thing? Every MMO I played -

 

I am do raids and so I am get better stuff than you not raiding. And I am come rant on forum cos you who are not raiding get stuff I get.

 

Meh.

 

"I worked for this.." - It's not work, it's a game. If you think it's work, try 40 hours a week in my office.

 

Really. I enjoy group content and raiding, it's nice to get a bit of loot, of course but for me, the real reward is achieving the goals, in cooperation with friends working as a team.

 

Seriously if it bothers anyone that much, refuse to group with anyone who can't show the appropriate titles. Otherwise bugger off, live and let live, set your wounded egos to one side and just let's get on with the game.

OP I actually agree with you, but ultimately we just need to hold out hope that the next raid zone and tier of gear will change this as BW has hinted.

Want to know how to take advantage of the credits-based pay-to-win? Clear the new content when it comes out, acquire gear, reverse engineer all of it, then post the newly learned gear to the GTN for crazy amounts of credits.

Want to know how to take advantage of the credits-based pay-to-win? Clear the new content when it comes out, acquire gear, reverse engineer all of it, then post the newly learned gear to the GTN for crazy amounts of credits.

The other advantage is buy mods and armor to replace the stuff that cannot be used. Got the belt the other night, couldn't use it until I replace both the armoring and the mod...Hell the bh had better stats. Thank the maker (bioware) for allowing crafting of gear or I would be running around with dreadguard gear in my inventory.

 

I do find it silly that you can RE stuff made by another crafter. However, I have no problem buying from crafters in my guild and other raiders. Especially since I got the gear, but it is just unusable with it current stats.

Guess what, a little bird (who just happends to work in Bioware SWTOR department) told me that the next Ops armor sets can´t be crafted.

 

Isn´t it fun when you actually have to do Ops to get the Ops gear

guess what, a little bird (who just happends to work in bioware swtor department) told me that the next ops armor sets can´t be crafted.

 

Isn´t it fun when you actually have to do ops to get the ops gear

zing!

Guess what, a little bird (who just happends to work in Bioware SWTOR department) told me that the next Ops armor sets can´t be crafted.

 

Isn´t it fun when you actually have to do Ops to get the Ops gear

 

That's when I start playing full time again =D. Can't wait! No more people trying to join the guild flaunting their full 63's only for us to find out that they obviously had all of it crafted when they are pulling 30% less damage on boss fights than the 3-4/5 63 guys...

Heh..

 

You people speak as if Bioware has ever released an item set that wasn't terribly itemised, either pve or pvp, consequently requring players to grind out two to three times the number of items per slot just to correct their incompetence.

You people speak as if Bioware has ever released an item set that wasn't terribly itemised, either pve or pvp, consequently requring players to grind out two to three times the number of items per slot just to correct their incompetence.

 

The consistency of such behavior suggests either extreme competence (insofar as they don't want players to just get a piece of gear and have it be "teh bestest it can be!" right out of the box so they make it so that *nothing* is optimally itemized immediately) or extreme ignorance (i.e. they think they're making everything itemized perfectly right off the bat and just have no clue that, holy crap, Accuracy isn't useful for tanks *at all*). Which interpretation of the information you choose to follow depends upon your personal preference (and is probably a good Rorschach test for your overall opinion of Bioware as a whole).

^^^ I always assumed it was mostly by design (except for a few silly choices)

 

Keep the players active longer if it takes a while to get BiS.

Heh..

 

You people speak as if Bioware has ever released an item set that wasn't terribly itemised, either pve or pvp, consequently requring players to grind out two to three times the number of items per slot just to correct their incompetence.

 

Yeah, if we can't RE mods it will take more than 8 weeks of full clears to get BiS. Let's face it, it will probably take 2 pieces of gear per slot to get BiS if BW does it their way. So that's 16 weeks of full clears to min-max. <sarcasm> Oh boy, what fun!</sarcasm>

 

Hopefully they're do the itemization better this time around.

The consistency of such behavior suggests either extreme competence (insofar as they don't want players to just get a piece of gear and have it be "teh bestest it can be!" right out of the box so they make it so that *nothing* is optimally itemized immediately) or extreme ignorance (i.e. they think they're making everything itemized perfectly right off the bat and just have no clue that, holy crap, Accuracy isn't useful for tanks *at all*). Which interpretation of the information you choose to follow depends upon your personal preference (and is probably a good Rorschach test for your overall opinion of Bioware as a whole).

I'd personally assume a mix of both, really. I seem to remember it being stated somewhere that they wanted to reward people who take the extra time to fine tune their gear or somesuch, which to a point I'd be ok with.

 

But then we have, as dps commandos for example, Dread Guard gear that is utter garbage in virtually every slot. Aim heavy mods. Endurance heavy enhancements. Endurance heavy barrels. Hundreds more crit rating than I'd ever, ever want. Most of it was actually worse than the previous tier of stuff, which is pretty bloody impressive considering how bad Black Hole gear off the vendor was too. I didn't so much have to fine tune that crap as I did near completely replace it all with crafted stuff. It's hard to believe they consciously made it that terrible as part of some bizarre strategy to reward dedication.

 

If it's a situation replicated in the next level of operations without the ability to craft actually-better-than-the-rubbish-my-gear-comes-with replacements, I can't imagine ever having the willpower to grind out two dozen various item tokens from drops to actually fix it in the first place, let alone against an entire guild of other people. That's pretty atrocious game design under any stretch of the imagination.

 

Doing this literally hurts everybody, raiders included, and for what?

Edited February 7, 2013 by Bleeters

They consistently put out poorly itemized gear intentionally... it's working as intended.

 

Not Broken ~ IS feature

Not Broken ~ IS feature

The two aren't mutually exclusive, y'know.

 

You know what happened the last time they did the whole 'no crafting, terrible item drops, need to farm multiples of each to correct it' thing? People just wore Battlemaster gear, and biochem was the only useful profession. That's not indicative of a working feature.

Edited February 8, 2013 by Bleeters

Coming from a game (SWG) where you got "endgame" gear in the form of a schematic, and then crafted them, it seems completely normal to me.

The two aren't mutually exclusive, y'know.

 

You know what happened the last time they did the whole 'no crafting, terrible item drops, need to farm multiples of each to correct it' thing? People just wore Battlemaster gear, and biochem was the only useful profession. That's not indicative of a working feature.

 

I'm not worried about not making credits from crafting - mostly because I've failed to learn every DG mod I've RE'd:(

 

What worries me is the TERRIBLE way BW itemizes gear stats. I don't want to run Nightmare TFB 16+ times when it comes out in order to have properly itemized gear. That's just not fun.