I finally get it!

in a dps with tank match, and this other mando is demanding guard. we lose both rounds and mando say, "yall are terrible" to ops and leaves.

I check the dmg taken. he's at 257k. he didn't get guard all game. the jugg dps had it. I didn't have it either. so I compare him to me. I took 345k. now that's not great for me, but the dude only took 257k and he's yelling at the tank. so I msg him on fleet and just say, "I know you don't want to hear this, but as a mando, you need to take at least 350k dmg without guard. a good mando takes 400-450k dmg before he dies without guard or healer. you took 257k. I only took 345k, but...well...you get the idea."

his reply was, "dont tll me how to play my tune id love to duel you." followed by, "duel?" etc.

like, I know I'm medicore, but I also know that there's a certain amount of dmg you should take per class and that directly affects how long you live and so on and so forth. so when I try to reach out as judiciously as possible and be slapped away, it's like...ok. I get it! this is why no one tries to help. it's not jealously guarding a secret. it's not even a lack of time. it's because you're met with rancor and bile.

I finally get it!

 

in a dps with tank match, and this other mando is demanding guard. we lose both rounds and mando say, "yall are terrible" to ops and leaves.

 

I check the dmg taken. he's at 257k. he didn't get guard all game. the jugg dps had it. I didn't have it either. so I compare him to me. I took 345k. now that's not great for me, but the dude only took 257k and he's yelling at the tank. so I msg him on fleet and just say, "I know you don't want to hear this, but as a mando, you need to take at least 350k dmg without guard. a good mando takes 400-450k dmg before he dies without guard or healer. you took 257k. I only took 345k, but...well...you get the idea."

 

his reply was, "dont tll me how to play my tune id love to duel you." followed by, "duel?" etc.

 

like, I know I'm medicore, but I also know that there's a certain amount of dmg you should take per class and that directly affects how long you live and so on and so forth. so when I try to reach out as judiciously as possible and be slapped away, it's like...ok. I get it! this is why no one tries to help. it's not jealously guarding a secret. it's not even a lack of time. it's because you're met with rancor and bile.

I'm glad you took the time to describe this scenario. I've had those kinds of conversations many times myself. You try to explain to someone that they were playing poorly, backed up by facts, and they just refuse to listen. They lose game after game, all the while people are getting angrier at them.

And what happens next? They come onto the forums complaining that ranked is so "toxic" and I have to argue with them lol.

nah. he just thinks he's good. like the sorc who complains that the team isn't peeling for him when he dies in the first 30s.

I've been there, but I'm not blaming ppl for not peeling.

nah. he just thinks he's good. like the sorc who complains that the team isn't peeling for him when he dies in the first 30s.

 

I've been there, but I'm not blaming ppl for not peeling.

Yeah, people really need to take responsibility for their own play, especially in all dps games. Sometimes people will complain when I don't offheal them nonstop, even while they are playing totally out of position and mashing all of their dcds at once. My puny offheals can't make up for their poor play.

even while they are playing totally out of position and mashing all of their dcds at once. My puny offheals can't make up for their poor play.

I find this the biggest irritant when I am on heals... People that run ahead and a team that goes scattered on different targets!

When we got 2-3 stealths, I have had the entire team split off and leave me (sorc heals) to try to manage the opposite teams stealths on my own, who almost always come straight for me.

So annoying trying to keep myself up, and then try to run ahead and land heals on a team that is scattered all over the place.

I am finding on bad teams like this, if i just run off and kite alone, I stand a better chance of living and our team winning if I can manage to stay alive a long time to give my team time to kill enemies first.

Thing is, this is backwards and starts bad practice habits when I need to stay with my team and use guard when given it or peels. If I run off kiting into no mans land, I can't get any team support.

zzzzz a good jugg takes 350k dmg before dieing, a good lightning sorc takes 450k and a good merc takes 450k-600k depending on team comp, focus and map. (basicaly how many fury maras and engineer snipers do they have, and anything but corilia. can we all agree corilia sucks for 4 dps matchs.. ugh.)

I like corellia. there's plenty of room to kite and stuff to pillar hump if you position well. but it's rough against range heavy teams.

I used to despise orbital station because it zooms my camera really close, and I can't see well in it. but these days, my only gripes are with rishi & madalorian ring dead zones, and there's a niche in the back of orbital where players can get stuck.

zzzzz a good jugg takes 350k dmg before dieing, a good lightning sorc takes 450k and a good merc takes 450k-600k depending on team comp, focus and map. (basicaly how many fury maras and engineer snipers do they have, and anything but corilia. can we all agree corilia sucks for 4 dps matchs.. ugh.)

Jugg taking 350k damage isn't hard with h2f (it's like pressing 1 button 125k~ * 2 = 250k~ to start) and then an extra +30% of 125k which is 37.5k damage so 287k. Plus medpack lands you in around 43.7k more hp, so 330k damage taken. If they survive long enough for another round of endure pain that number might go to 350k I suppose.

But once you're out of dcd's you're out.

No idea why but 350k isn't unusual either on my pt.

pt is a little different, because a lot of time theirkolto is bursted through and it doesn't heal as much. also kolto missile on AP heals I believe up like 30k hp in total. it's not as good as some utility cause you won't really live long enough to notice it, but it will drop another 30k on your dmg taken before death

350k for jugg is because lets suppose you start bolstered. so 135k hp. now add 45k medpac. 175k. now take that down to 40k hp, activate ED. 175k - 40k = 135k. so you get 135k worth of heals here, and you are back to full. so now you have 175k + 135k = 310k. now you have only EP left. so for 15 seconds (I believe?) your hp doubles, then goes back. basicaly any dmg inflicted during this dcd is considered a "heal" because hp consumed during this, half of it is not real, and therefore treated as a heal. for EP to do the remaining 40k of 310k you'de have take somewhere around 80k dmg during EP. this is unrealistic honestly, you'll take more like 40-50k so your left 330-340k. you can take stun breaker heal (bad idea) and it'll buff you 350k but 9/10 (this is why you have to a "good" jugg, you need to either escape combat for a second medpac, or get another ED both of which require you to either escpae tunnel, and/or be good enough that people don't go you first by reputation

pt is a little different, because a lot of time theirkolto is bursted through and it doesn't heal as much. also kolto missile on AP heals I believe up like 30k hp in total. it's not as good as some utility cause you won't really live long enough to notice it, but it will drop another 30k on your dmg taken before death

 

350k for jugg is because lets suppose you start bolstered. so 135k hp. now add 45k medpac. 175k. now take that down to 40k hp, activate ED. 175k - 40k = 135k. so you get 135k worth of heals here, and you are back to full. so now you have 175k + 135k = 310k. now you have only EP left. so for 15 seconds (I believe?) your hp doubles, then goes back. basicaly any dmg inflicted during this dcd is considered a "heal" because hp consumed during this, half of it is not real, and therefore treated as a heal. for EP to do the remaining 40k of 310k you'de have take somewhere around 80k dmg during EP. this is unrealistic honestly, you'll take more like 40-50k so your left 330-340k. you can take stun breaker heal (bad idea) and it'll buff you 350k but 9/10 (this is why you have to a "good" jugg, you need to either escape combat for a second medpac, or get another ED both of which require you to either escpae tunnel, and/or be good enough that people don't go you first by reputation

Yeah I was going low with the 125k number, to say why it isn't that hard to take that much damage as a jugg (obv though you're limited around that range like you said). Your hp doesn't double with EP, it's just 30% more and random tiny effects for everything but veng which gets 15% extra DR during it. It's 10 seconds for all jugg specs except tank which is 20. Interesting that it counts as a heal, never heard of that, but if that's the case it should still be HP to be eaten up as damage taken right or am I missing something? Also you take damage while getting attacked and healing, which means it usually works out to be a little more for ED which was why I did my math as if it doubles your hp (125k*2). In fact your ED can kinda sputter out halfway through healing you if enough people are bursting 20k + attacks on you eating thru the stacks. Ideally this doesnt happen if you're properly stacking power and crit which make the self heals higher but it still can sadly.

I finally get it!

 

in a dps with tank match, and this other mando is demanding guard. we lose both rounds and mando say, "yall are terrible" to ops and leaves.

 

I check the dmg taken. he's at 257k. he didn't get guard all game. the jugg dps had it. I didn't have it either. so I compare him to me. I took 345k. now that's not great for me, but the dude only took 257k and he's yelling at the tank. so I msg him on fleet and just say, "I know you don't want to hear this, but as a mando, you need to take at least 350k dmg without guard. a good mando takes 400-450k dmg before he dies without guard or healer. you took 257k. I only took 345k, but...well...you get the idea."

 

his reply was, "dont tll me how to play my tune id love to duel you." followed by, "duel?" etc.

 

like, I know I'm medicore, but I also know that there's a certain amount of dmg you should take per class and that directly affects how long you live and so on and so forth. so when I try to reach out as judiciously as possible and be slapped away, it's like...ok. I get it! this is why no one tries to help. it's not jealously guarding a secret. it's not even a lack of time. it's because you're met with rancor and bile.

without saying anything about you, however this is one of 2 scenarios usually and frankly the less frequent and less clarifying of the situation.

Namely in your case the 'player that needs schooling' was 'trying to school'. Normally its the hater in my experience that will go to the trouble of whispering people with tips - usually the solo ranked player that just lost 400 ELO while being matched with immensly lower ranked team mates (due to the low population deficiencies) keep in mind hes not in the best of moods usually when he approaches u with tips.

The fact that you have so "candidly" decided to do some ToK does in now way mean the other player has the time or interest to 'stay a while and listen'... Nor that that player has a sufficient interest in pvp to take it that far.. whatever be the reasons you must see that imposing your views on someone elses game is in no way polite or friendly?

tbh the distinction between unranked and ranked is the problem at this point. all Arenas should count towards ELO and wzs be part of the same GF but not give ELO, or something down those lines. That way not only will people stop filtering access to PVP but the GF will have consistent numbers on toons to play with when evaluating palyers (cos all matches would count towards assigning your elo/rating - and thus match u against equal players)

The fact that you have so "candidly" decided to do some ToK does in now way mean the other player has the time or interest to 'stay a while and listen'... Nor that that player has a sufficient interest in pvp to take it that far.. whatever be the reasons you must see that imposing your views on someone elses game is in no way polite or friendly? )

lmao. "imposing my views."

lmao. "imposing my views."

errrr "dont tll me how to play my tune id love to duel you." followed by, "duel?" etc.

The fact that you have so "candidly" decided to do some ToK does in now way mean the other player has the time or interest to 'stay a while and listen'... Nor that that player has a sufficient interest in pvp to take it that far.. whatever be the reasons you must see that imposing your views on someone elses game is in no way polite or friendly?

They better have sufficient interest in improving at pvp if they're playing ranked.

lmao. "imposing my views."

lol exactly. We are constantly told to teach people, but then when we try it's "imposing our views" apparently.

errrr "dont tll me how to play my tune id love to duel you." followed by, "duel?" etc.

What? If someone is playing demonstrably poorly and is getting killed far faster than they should be, they are playing badly. There are subtle style differences that can work in ranked, but there are also clearly wrong ways to play. You might think it's a great idea to try kicking the basketball into the hoop, but when an experienced player tells you that you should be shooting with your hands, you best listen rather than saying "fight me."

You might think it's a great idea to try kicking the basketball into the hoop, but when an experienced player tells you that you should be shooting with your hands, you best listen rather than saying "fight me."

But I'm going for my 1000-kicked-basketball achievement, so don't tell me how to play! (Not sure that's really tongue-in-cheek... sadly. )

But I'm going for my 1000-kicked-basketball achievement, so don't tell me how to play! (Not sure that's really tongue-in-cheek... sadly. )

lol well, thankfully there are no ranked achievements.

They better have sufficient interest in improving at pvp if they're playing ranked.

 

What? If someone is playing demonstrably poorly and is getting killed far faster than they should be, they are playing badly. ..."

my point is that denying access to someone cos they are not 'good' is not the way to go about it.

I dont want to hyperbole, but surely you see that 1 some may have impediments to their efficiency, others may just not be good...

My point is in a 4v4, and no draws at the end of the day 4 players get the pointy end of the stick no matter what. its unfair to expect the 'unskilled or inexperienced or whatever, to exclude himself.

- What I mean is

usually pvp rating systems which are based on the chess world matching rating SHOULD assign players within brackets. When this isn't possible it goes for the next best thing. If population is very low, the 'next best thing' becomes, 'whatever is available'

Now, would you agree with me if i told you that 30 mins PVP VIDEO GUIDE for a specific class is probably NOT sufficient time to cover everything and that to even keep it within 30 mins youd have to cram in a lot of info and renounce any idle talk...

Usually that amount of experience takes a lot of time to acquire, some things require practice aside from the knowledge. Take a sage, while easy to use the amount of options available are many and knowing about them is one thing being able to remember them ALL in a match is another.

Now about being asked to teach, (and tbh im not sure i agree but..) how do expect the above information (AND A LOT MORE OF IT) to be transferred in a conversation that is most probably spawned off a lost pvp match and the salt that derives. How such a socialization can go well is only up to godess fortune especially considering how long any such convo might be and considering the mood of both parties entering the convo (possible after having first insulted each other).

I agree with many of your points and would rather discuss those and how they could be solved (for example removing unranked and using wzs to acquire elo data for the system to use when assigning matches would help alleviating problems related to lack of data) than advocate in favor of the frustration that trying to transfer months (or more) of experience (and salt) brings to.

Now about being asked to teach, (and tbh im not sure i agree but..) how do expect the above information (AND A LOT MORE OF IT) to be transferred in a conversation that is most probably spawned off a lost pvp match and the salt that derives. How such a socialization can go well is only up to godess fortune especially considering how long any such convo might be and considering the mood of both parties entering the convo (possible after having first insulted each other).

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say. Are you saying that you should never even bother trying to help someone, because they won't ever take it well?

I've said in the past that we have no obligation to teach people, but there are definitely times when it's justified, and if people want to that's up to them. I would go even further and say that sometimes saying something to someone that is somewhat insulting is necessary. How will someone ever improve if they don't realize that they're playing wrong? The kind of stuff Foxmob said to the person in his game was trying to inform the guy that he wasn't playing as well as he should be, and he was in complete denial of his poor play. You have to start somewhere.

And most importantly, if no one ever told the guy that he was playing poorly, then he might never realize that he's playing poorly, and he would have no incentive to improve at all. People usually need some kind of feedback to improve. The rating system itself is one form of that feedback (but it doesn't seem to work that well, the amount of 1000 rated people that think they're gods is disturbing), and the reactions of other players is another.

...How will someone ever improve if they don't realize that they're playing wrong? ...

taking this to extremes, but, what if they aren't really invested in improving, or not right then (maybe they just wanna steam off with some pvp) or just not in the mood.

What im saying is Transfer of Knowledge is usually stressful enuff (or we wouldn't have school punishments to begin with etc etc etc).. Any successful ToK spawned from unfavorable circumstances (including astral positioning if u allow me a pun) is like finding a 0.0001 drop item... The system needs to cater towards this and not the player/community.. the frustration pvpers further in progression are subject to has been a constant so far.

just an example to try and give a double perspective.

'You/anyone' might be thinking your trying to be helpful and friendly by sharing info you took months to acquire, but the all the other players sees is an unfriendly posture or possibly insults' Considering that 'such students' are not 'obliged to go to school' it is not surprising they will walk away if they feel your 'teaching technique' is even 1% not interesting/funny/engaging/whatever. I dont know where u stand in life but just consider, why do teachers get angry with students.. I mean why care? The implications are... immense,, just in the RL, expecting a pvp community to be the driving force spreading the required know how... is hyperbole imo

And most importantly, if no one ever told the guy that he was playing poorly, then he might never realize that he's playing poorly, and he would have no incentive to improve at all. People usually need some kind of feedback to improve. The rating system itself is one form of that feedback (but it doesn't seem to work that well, the amount of 1000 rated people that think they're gods is disturbing), and the reactions of other players is another.

let's be clear here. I didn't just msg him and say, "you're playing badly." he told everyone else on his team that we were bad -- I think toxic is aer on a his sin but I forget; he's someone who knows how to taunt and guard swap. then I pointed out the dmg taken issue and tried to give the moody mando an idea of what the range is for a mandos under focus -- even if you don't have a chance to heal up. I used the fact that I was on the same class as a baseline (because the other classes and skill of the players focusing you does also affect this, but it was the same for both of us). I didn't "impose my [whatever] on him." I didn't attack him. and I didn't call him out publicly, which could actually be construed as "impolite" or intended to embarrass or "harassing."

his reply to that was "F. U. fight me." as if a duel has anything to do with dealing with focus fire, which was clearly his problem. but I didn't bother trying to explain it after that. it was just like, "whoa! ok. we're done here. not trying this again." I mean, I've had ppl whisper me and help me out after a match. for example, if you're about to drop, you can click off reactive screen to soak up the 40% heal shield charges (just like you could click off the bubble in bubble-stun era). but nah. I was imposing my playstyle on the guy, apparently.

let's be clear here. I didn't just msg him and say, "you're playing badly." he told everyone else on his team that we were bad -- I think toxic is aer on a his sin but I forget; he's someone who knows how to taunt and guard swap. then I pointed out the dmg taken issue and tried to give the moody mando an idea of what the range is for a mandos under focus -- even if you don't have a chance to heal up. I used the fact that I was on the same class as a baseline (because the other classes and skill of the players focusing you does also affect this, but it was the same for both of us). I didn't "impose my [whatever] on him." I didn't attack him. and I didn't call him out publicly, which could actually be construed as "impolite" or intended to embarrass or "harassing."

 

his reply to that was "F. U. fight me." as if a duel has anything to do with dealing with focus fire, which was clearly his problem. but I didn't bother trying to explain it after that. it was just like, "whoa! ok. we're done here. not trying this again." I mean, I've had ppl whisper me and help me out after a match. for example, if you're about to drop, you can click off reactive screen to soak up the 40% heal shield charges (just like you could click off the bubble in bubble-stun era). but nah. I was imposing my playstyle on the guy, apparently.

i wasn't being specific of your situation. but still, expecting that convo to go well is hardly within the cards. example your playing football, your infront of the enemy goal, free from defence and your mate with ball is surrounded but has easy access to pass u the ball tries to but royaly fails. Scenario number 1. its pro football your being paid and are really angry at him (cos u get also paid by scores btw). scenario number 2 its a sunday match and your playing with your friends after lunch at the pub. Are you seriously gonna get into a discussion with your mate about his Banana feet? possibly infront of your gf/wife and his and maybe children? Hopefully not.

let's be clear here. I didn't just msg him and say, "you're playing badly."

I understood that. But telling him what you told him is as good as telling him he's playing badly, it's just a bit more specific lol.

i wasn't being specific of your situation. but still, expecting that convo to go well is hardly within the cards. example your playing football, your infront of the enemy goal, free from defence and your mate with ball is surrounded but has easy access to pass u the ball tries to but royaly fails. Scenario number 1. its pro football your being paid and are really angry at him (cos u get also paid by scores btw). scenario number 2 its a sunday match and your playing with your friends after lunch at the pub. Are you seriously gonna get into a discussion with your mate about his Banana feet? possibly infront of your gf/wife and his and maybe children? Hopefully not.

But your analogy is wrong (if I understand it correctly)...because ranked is this game's equivalent of pro soccer (obviously with much lower stakes), not the Sunday afternoon game.

And once again though, is your solution to just stay silent at all times? The bad player will just continue to lose over and over again, ruining games for everyone else in the process, until he just quits ranked, likely blaming his woes on the game or other players rather than himself