so I have to ask one question, but before I do, please know a little bit about my background...

 

I have a 45+ operative and scoundrel and could absolutely wreck most opponents with ease in Conc/Scrap Spec before this patch. I do not agree with the damage buffs they were given, but the removal of the RNG portion is well appreciated. i have been an active player since launch so I am well aware of the "stunlocking" days and how much QQ was surrounding them back then. I also have a lvl 46 assassin so I am well aware of their burst potential.

 

With that in mind i find one particular thing odd with the QQ patterns of most people on the forums: Why so much hate for op/scoundrel stunlocking, when an assassin has access to an EXTREMELY similar stunlocking opening from stealth?. Compare the 2 below

 

Assassin (Deception):

Spike(1.5 sec stun) -> Maul (5-10k dmg) -> Electrocute (4 sec stun) -> Discharge (6-8k dmg) -> Shock (5-7k dmg)(stun duration ends here) -> Maul(5-10k dmg) -> Assassinate (3-6k dmg)

 

Operative (Concealment)

Hidden strike(1.5 sec stun and 5-7k dmg) -> Laceration(3-7k dmg) -> Debilitate (4 sec stun) -> Shiv(2-4k dmg) -> Laceration(3-7k dmg)(stun duration ends here) -> Laceration(3-7k dmg) -> Backstab(4-7k dmg)

 

So lets compare:

Stun duration:(5.5 seconds for BOTH)

 

Burst Damage: Assassin has a slight edge here - the main difference is that several of your skills (discharge and shock) are nearly guaranteed to crit due to the Recklesness buff - Operative, while capable of devastation, is at the mercy of the crit RNG as its crit chances are nowhere near as high as an assassin, even with the few crit passives given to them by their skill tree. All in all, Assassin burst damage is actually more consistent and more deadly during the stun burst window than an operative

 

Sustained Damage: Operative has the better end of the deal here. the spec is less RNG dependant and more capable of continuing damage after the burst window than an assassin is. Concealment does tail off eventually, but you get another 2-3 GCDs of consistent damage.

 

Survivability: Another one for the assassin here, the operative defensive cool downs are pretty much garbage, while the assassin CD's are somewhat better. The difference in light and medium armor is almost negligible as well, considering an assassin has access to 12 seconds of 25% damage reduction (6 coming out of stealth and 6 more when using blackout)

 

So here is the question:

Why is there now, and has there always been so much QQ around op/scoundrel stunlocking, when an assassin can stunlock just as much with higher damage potential during the burst window?

 

I do not know, I just do not know. I am certainly more scared of a good assassin than a good operative

Edited February 4, 2014 by Off_My_Newts

They also have non-interruptable instant heals?! Like the healer version?!

Oh, no. But what's happening today is that we're seeing groups of 3-4 operatives blowing folks up. Anyone that survives the initial burst is being focused/CC'd, while any operative that's taken damage can roll out and get off a heal unmolested.

 

A group of assassins doesn't have the option of healing themselves without dropping combat, nor do they have the combination of burst and sustained damage that operatives have. Deception has burst, but no sustained. Madness has sustained but no burst.

 

Concealment really does have it all now.

Oh, the new OPphobic-group already started? Ok, well, well, all the new faces here!

 

"Hello Dave!"

Here's my issue with the current operative scenario. yes granted, ops in a 1v1 situation versus someone who knows how to roll their class can handle it, but add another op or two into that scenario and you have a whole other topic. For instance, arena, 4v4, my team: sorc, mara, op, pt. other team: 3 ops, 1 merc. sorc and merc being the healers. 3 ops not only stun locked my ***, but my 'resolve' bar that supposedly is going to allow me to be immune to stuns after two or three stuns, becomes absolutely useless with the current damage buff. between my cc breaker and my super bubble, I bought myself maybe 10 more seconds with two other ops in group... I don't mind a balancing of classes but to give such a buff to a class that already has a viable PvE spec dps wise, hands down best burst healing in the game, and the most mobile class? come on...

Concealment Operatives/Scoundrels were a very good one v one class prior to 2.6 and in regular warzones.

 

Such was not the case in a 4v4 scenario due to lack of survivability in dps mode, less people to target and smaller maps, and less sustained dps.

 

BW tried to tweak them for ranked by increasing their damage and not survivability.

 

The large majority of players play regular warzones and not ranked.

 

Hence the QQ.

Here's my issue with the current operative scenario. yes granted, ops in a 1v1 situation versus someone who knows how to roll their class can handle it, but add another op or two into that scenario and you have a whole other topic. For instance, arena, 4v4, my team: sorc, mara, op, pt. other team: 3 ops, 1 merc. sorc and merc being the healers. 3 ops not only stun locked my ***, but my 'resolve' bar that supposedly is going to allow me to be immune to stuns after two or three stuns, becomes absolutely useless with the current damage buff. between my cc breaker and my super bubble, I bought myself maybe 10 more seconds with two other ops in group... I don't mind a balancing of classes but to give such a buff to a class that already has a viable PvE spec dps wise, hands down best burst healing in the game, and the most mobile class? come on...

 

Add another OP or two? Who wants THREE spots on their team taken up by concealment operatives?

 

It happens to be the case that mercenaries and sorcerers are also bottom tier arena classes. Don't pretend the match would have gone the same way against two smash marauders, a healing operative, and a tank. Even before 2.6, operatives were pretty good at trolling casting based classes. Nothing has changed here, mechanically. In a PUG match, you should expect to see those operatives actually hurting each other because they'll all get scared after losing a little HP, and they'll all use flashbang to save themselves. All opponents nearby will get max resolve and then the operatives will be focused down to ashes.

Here's my issue with the current operative scenario. yes granted, ops in a 1v1 situation versus someone who knows how to roll their class can handle it, but add another op or two into that scenario and you have a whole other topic. For instance, arena, 4v4, my team: sorc, mara, op, pt. other team: 3 ops, 1 merc. sorc and merc being the healers. 3 ops not only stun locked my ***, but my 'resolve' bar that supposedly is going to allow me to be immune to stuns after two or three stuns, becomes absolutely useless with the current damage buff. between my cc breaker and my super bubble, I bought myself maybe 10 more seconds with two other ops in group... I don't mind a balancing of classes but to give such a buff to a class that already has a viable PvE spec dps wise, hands down best burst healing in the game, and the most mobile class? come on...

 

If you are having trouble with op dps in arenas then you sir, I´m afraid, are a bad player. If U cant focus down a dps with ZERO damage mitigation, you should probably stick to PVE or something.

Operatives were able to stunlock me (heavy armor Jug) to death before patch.

 

Good thing Devs gave them more damage...

 

They were pvp kings of 1 vs 1 fighting before patch.

 

Good thing Devs gave them more damage...

 

If you are getting killed by a concealment/scrapper in a stunlock, you are very poorly geared. Hidden Strikes knockdown lasts 1.5 seconds, debilitate lasts 4, and your resolve bar is full. So 5.5 seconds total, assuming they blow them on top of each other. Bearing in mind that debilitate triggers a 1.5 second global cd, it basically eats that amount of the stun before the player can resume burst. Thus it's really only 4 seconds where any burst dmg will be incoming. ( aside from Hidden Strike)

 

And lets talk about damage for a second. Fully geared vs fully geared the op/sc will only see around 8-8.5k hidden stike crits. and 5-6.5k lacerate crits and assuming they use probe it can hit around 6-7k. This varies depending on target and current buff/debuffs, but are the average numbers you will see from a op/sc.

 

Now todays buff did 2 things for them, more crits and a wee bit more sustained dmg with the collateral strike change.

Also to put this into perspective, it's actually a bit less burst deception/infiltrate is capable of and slightly less frequent.

 

I have also seen these numbers and more on every dps spec in the game barring aoe specs, for obvious reasons.

 

What I am noticing is that the spec was so rare before, the major issue today is they there are 3+ in every wz. And folks have forgotten how to deal with them, or haven't had to deal with them at all.

 

The point is, just about every class besides sage/sorc or the players mirror should in no way be dead before that 5.5 seconds is up, and even they have the tools to keep that from happening. Unless ofcoarse said target is low on health without cool downs, or severely outgeared, but again that can be said of any good player behind a dps toon.

 

Edit- I didn't mention Flashbang because it's a mez not a stun and thus any incoming dmg will break it. If you get flashbanged+ op/sc heals up, it is indeed a l2p issue with managing cd's. And Sleep dart+ heal is available to both stealth classes and suffers from the same l2p issue.

Edited February 4, 2014 by Phenixx

Ok good for Assassins.

 

The difference maybe in flavor then.

With Assassins I am able to do something before i die. Which is in a sense satisfactory even if you loose.

With operatives in most cases I'm not able to control my character at all before I die, which brings up the frustration.

 

Deception assassins have more CC than operatives. Your logic is fail.

If you are getting killed by a concealment/scrapper in a stunlock, you are very poorly geared.

I respectfully disagree. I've been watching Scoundrels and Operatives using blue 46 main/offhand mods tearing through players in fully-augmented Conqueror/Obroan gear within 3-5 GCDs all day long.

So here is the question:

Why is there now, and has there always been so much QQ around op/scoundrel stunlocking, when an assassin can stunlock just as much with higher damage potential during the burst window?

 

I do not know, I just do not know. I am certainly more scared of a good assassin than a good operative

 

Interesting view. I haven't see it this way so far.

 

And no, I don't know, either.

 

The point is, just about every class besides sage/sorc or the players mirror should in no way be dead before that 5.5 seconds is up, and even they have the tools to keep that from happening.

 

And that's why I hate playing my Sage in PvP.

Edited February 4, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

Your tears are delicious Edited February 4, 2014 by Aerilas

Your bread, too.

Im not sure what everyone is talking about. I both have an op which I tried out concealment today on and a Jugg who I usually ignore/murder ops on.

 

Things are mostly the same. The hits from the op are a little bit higher. meh.

Everyone who thinks conc is now OP is bad and should feel bad.

Everyone who thinks conc is now OP is bad and should feel bad.

 

I just want it to blow over and everyone realize scrapper is still just "ok" so I can go back to being the only scrapper in a warzone lol.

I just want it to blow over and everyone realize scrapper is still just "ok" so I can go back to being the only scrapper in a warzone lol.

 

Haha, yeah, I feel the same way. Had a game earlier today with literally 5 conc ops on the other team. We still managed to win.

(Copied from my concealment 2.6 thread.)

 

"Our time has come... For over one hundred patches, We improvised, We grew stronger...While you rested, in your cradle of premades....Believing your healers were safe, and protected."

 

"You were trusted, to carry the Huttball...But you were deceived...As the power of the smash monkeys blinded you..."

 

"You assumed no force could challenge you."

 

"....And now....Finally"

 

"We have returned."

Edited February 5, 2014 by Sideblaze

(Copied from my concealment 2.6 thread.)

 

"Our time has come... For over one hundred patches, We improvised, We grew stronger...While you rested, in your cradle of premades....Believing your healers were safe, and protected."

 

"You were trusted, to carry the Huttball...But you were deceived...As the power of the smash monkeys blinded you..."

 

"You assumed no force could challenge you."

 

"....And now....Finally"

 

"We have returned."

 

awesome!

 

i cant wait to tear some Operatives apart with my Sniper

awesome!

 

i cant wait to tear some Operatives apart with my Sniper

 

Only Operatives? Come now, we all know instagibbing smashies is far more satisfying.

Implementation of this patch is just lol. Coming from a pretty extensive background of mmo's/pvp.. this is just a utter laugh of a patch to oneside pvp so brutally of pretty much any patch I've seen. Warzones with 3-4 op's in them minimum on a side and seeing people drop in 1-2 secs over and over is gonna turn warzones into nothing but operatives very soon.

 

The entire pvp group aspect has been destroyed with this. I did my daily on my own pvp op first and was just astounded at how quickly people dropped. Then popped on my pt and it was lol.. dead in 2 secs.. to be expected given what I had just experienced on the other side. Toss in the last match.. 8 operatives .. seriously.. I've never seen more then 3-4 of a class normally in a op on a rare occasion let alone 8 op's. At least the match was over almost instantly.

 

My hats off to you bioware... guess I'll just play my op till Wildstar given how slowly you guys are to adjust anything game breaking or even acknowledge it. And then if you do.. it'll take you another year to patch anything. I thourougly enjoyed pvp up until this patch even though pubs pretty much smash imps into the ground on our server.. this though.. what to say.... I guess time will tell.

Patching. I have to see this. Either I will be LOLing at the overreactors, or LOLing at people suddenly dropping right next to me.

what is it that scrappers/concealments have that no other class has?

what is it that scrappers/concealments have that no other class has?

 

A history of being utter crap.

what is it that scrappers/concealments have that no other class has?

 

They get evasion every time they roll, which is pretty good in a lot of cases, but it doesn't make up for them being assassins that die twice as fast.