Reasons Marauder>Jugg DPS:

 

Undying Rage> Endure Pain: why is undying rage better? You take no damage while it is active and you get healed up. Endure Pain gives you health that is easily taken away in the same timeframe. Endure Pain is never going to give you a complete second life like UR with a healer or at least give you 5 seconds of kill potential without dying.

 

UR is better than endure pain, but similar purpose. UR will get nerfed with the healing so this will not be true anymore.

 

Cloak of Pain> Saber Reflect: Sure, Saber Reflect is much better on paper, but swap targets for 5 seconds or AOE and it's worthless. You might get lucky and reflect one ability if well timed.

are you serious? run to a sniper using cloak and run to a sniper using saber reflect. there is a difference and i wouldnt even compare saber reflect to CoP, more to endless rage

 

Stealth> Intercede: Both can get you out of a hairy situation, but stealth will save you even if rooted and if you LoS, will keep you out of harm's way longer since they won't just insta-leap to you.

not everyone can instant leap to you and it heals you and gives protection. you are not using stealth to escape, but to attack again and intercede isnt an escape always. but if i could choose, i would take the stealth.

 

30% AOE damage reduction>...?

shield and better armor against all attacks with exceptions. slight win for 30 aoe though

 

Crippling Throw> Taunt: Taunt just makes the other team want to attack me more and I'm already super squishy. Lowering healing is far better for an offensive class than a taunt which would be better served being used by an actual tank.

no. 30 reduction is great for a dps to throw out, you cant compare that to CT.

 

Ability utility>...?: Maras have BT and Predation to offer the group increased utility and damage.

i would say the taunts. and dont tell me that you use bt and predation so often when you need berserk for shockwave.

 

Carnage roots> Vengeance roots: yep.

thought we are comparing rage specs. did you know that veng gets the root too. btw, you forgot unstoppable. but lets stay with rage spec.

 

Heavy armor > Medium armor: It is? I've never noticed a difference.

with the shield about 10 percent more mitigation?

 

Basically, off-healing (mostly self-healing) can be worthwhile since there is plenty of damage to heal up, but off tanking is never needed from a DPS class in a 4v4 arena. Having taunts in 8v8 is nice because there are plenty of targets to be taunted and I can easily avoid damage from them on large maps so the taunts are worthwhile. But between 2 taunts on a class, I see no reason to taunt off the tank and give more reason to be the focus target. There just simply isn't any utility offered by a DPS Jugg to warrant bringing them over a Marauder considering how much squishier the class is.

 

Jugg tanks are another story and that's mostly just due to the overwhelming damage output of PT/VGs right now.

 

off tanking isnt needed? so why so much complaining about PT in ion who guard?

i see much more purpose of taunts in arenas than warzones. and why should you be the focus target when you taunt?! its not pve.

after the nerf jugg and mara will be quite even. i still prefer my jugg because i can handle him better and feel more valuable in some situations with taunt and stance switching. with my mara i always have the feeling i run around with a sign "hit me". when people see 2 sabers they get aggressive :-)

Edited November 25, 2013 by ishbindeinvater

Main reason camo is so good is because it drops target, intercede even getting you into LOS is quite situational depending on where a friendly target is and they still don't drop your target so the 3 guys attacking you still have you in sight ..

There are some misconceptions in the community. And any perception weakness at all will result in a landslide in favor of the class without it. Hypothetical example: If it's determined that, overall, dps guardians are 48% and sentinels are 52% in "absolute pvp ability" (numbers and stats are all made up for hypothetical argument) then 90% of the good/best players are going to pvp with sentinels especially since the play styles are so similar. And those dps guardians are going to get yelled at for not playing the 4% better class.

 

In some arena situations I would rather have a dps guardian on my team than a sentinel - they have a kb, self-heals, an aoe snare, taunts and their dmg is comparable - but sentinels are less vulnerable to focus fire which makes them a bit better most of the time.

 

Solo q tanking is in general a bad idea. In this game tanks are very dependent on having healers on their team to be effective at tanking. Guard, by design, doesn't mitigate damage to other party members, it just spreads it out (giving healers time to handle burst attacks). Many solo q fights do not have healers. Without the healing component, dps classes that can taunt are almost as good at tanking and are probably more useful for winning.

 

^This

 

The problem is that jugg and marauder right tree (rage) and middle tree (carnage and veng) play to some extent similar. Considering that rage jugg and marauder are extremely close in skills used and performance in terms of damage, the differential is utility and survivability. I would argue that rage jugg has better utility, but it is a small margin there. However, its a huge margin in survivability in the marauders favor.

 

Going back to the quoted from savej above, why play rage jugg, when rage marauder is vastly superior in survivability (assuming all else equals)? Veng is not competitive enough for ranked group arenas. Rage jugg is not bad by any means, in comparison to most dps classes. What hurts them the most is their close proximity to rage marauders, so most players who like the play style and are into competitive PvP have moved to rage marauders.

The real question is "So where are all these Commando/Mercenaries dominating the leader boards?"

The real question is "So where are all these Commando/Mercenaries dominating the leader boards?"

 

Yeah what maniac said ^

 

But here's my theory on what really happened to juggs.

 

Juggernauts are clearly still the best mitigation main tank by a long shot. Sins and PT's don't have intercede or aoe taunt, which basically makes them the best tank to have saving teammates. Everyone was already well aware that jugg dps was squishy and susceptible to focus fire, so juggs just maintanked.

 

However, when 2.0 dropped the game drastically increased survivability across the board. At this point juggs were probably still the best main tanks, since the other teams had 4 dps, but you did see some weird stuff like 3 healers, one on each node, in civil war or novarre. You might have also seen some other weird stuff like sorc packs in rateds because they can all offheal and are also good at offnodes where those heals and second cc breaker may be handy.

 

Then finally, arenas dropped. At this point the compositions shifted a little. Instead of 7v7 which usually went to 4 dps, 2 healers and one tank in a fight (with the 8th player at the off node), now you've just got 4 players fighting each other. Well as we all know, nobody is going to die in a scenario where the defense = the offense, and since there are no nodes to guard that is actually kind of a problem. You need more dps to get the job done, and now, to win the warzone.

 

Enter the powertech: the class which apparently had a hybrid that allows them to basically off-tank and off-dps at the same time, and do both almost as good as a dedicated slot. Most teams apparently didn't get by with a dedicated tank or a third dedicated dps, they needed that PT to give them just enough burst to score kills while still keeping the "tank", because the balance has shifted that far in favor of defense. Juggs don't have the ability to almost do both and neither do sins, so here we are.

 

TLDR: what happened to juggs? Bioware slowly and stealthily phased them out by changing the meta a few times.

Edited November 26, 2013 by JP_Legatus

What's the point of this thread?

More people PLAY marauders/sentinels than play juggernauts/guardians.

The fact that four times as many sentinels are in the top 100 doesn't mean that they they are four times as good.

Juggernauts are clearly still the best mitigation main tank by a long shot. Sins and PT's don't have intercede or aoe taunt, which basically makes them the best tank to have saving teammates.

 

All tank classes have an AOE taunt.

All tank classes have an AOE taunt.

 

Sorry, meant to say bubble on aoe taunt.

What's the point of this thread?

More people PLAY marauders/sentinels than play juggernauts/guardians.

The fact that four times as many sentinels are in the top 100 doesn't mean that they they are four times as good.

 

True, you'd have to use the percentage of played vs top

in arena with a merc in your team focused, intercede, aoe taunt and thats -50 percent damage for him. and you still can enrage/smash .... push on off .... 6sec mezz. that merc can energy shield and adrenal for another -40 percent. and off-heal. do that on your stunned madness sorc... i love those skills.

 

but probably i favor the jugg because i prefer helping my teammates survive and not just DPS

When in times 1.3 I understand what my main guardian its just poor man sentinel, I reroll into sentinel and from these times I NEVER regretted about that.

 

So you a reroll to a sent because you was bad with a guardian dps and can't hack it like some can?

 

Check and check.

 

Reroll sent stop typing, if you actually played it in arena you would understand it has enough to be viable at this very moment.

 

The root being added to ravage is a good thing coming, and since this rumor about power relics in pts can proc some crazy **** then just maybe a Vengeance Jugg can shine in 2.5.

 

Who the hell wants to play a smash monkey sent or jugg, Vengeance always was and always will be good in this game.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Makavelithug

UR is better than endure pain, but similar purpose. UR will get nerfed with the healing so this will not be true anymore.are you serious? run to a sniper using cloak and run to a sniper using saber reflect. there is a difference and i wouldnt even compare saber reflect to CoP, more to endless ragenot everyone can instant leap to you and it heals you and gives protection. you are not using stealth to escape, but to attack again and intercede isnt an escape always. but if i could choose, i would take the stealth.shield and better armor against all attacks with exceptions. slight win for 30 aoe thoughno. 30 reduction is great for a dps to throw out, you cant compare that to CT. i would say the taunts. and dont tell me that you use bt and predation so often when you need berserk for shockwave. thought we are comparing rage specs. did you know that veng gets the root too. btw, you forgot unstoppable. but lets stay with rage spec.with the shield about 10 percent more mitigation?

 

off tanking isnt needed? so why so much complaining about PT in ion who guard?

i see much more purpose of taunts in arenas than warzones. and why should you be the focus target when you taunt?! its not pve.

after the nerf jugg and mara will be quite even. i still prefer my jugg because i can handle him better and feel more valuable in some situations with taunt and stance switching. with my mara i always have the feeling i run around with a sign "hit me". when people see 2 sabers they get aggressive :-)

 

"Off tanking" would be someone who wasn't main tanking doing tanky stuff. We don't even let tanks do tanky stuff in the current meta. What I'm saying is, if we have an AP/Ion PT on our team, why would I taunt someone when they can do it themself? For the couple seconds where they may not have a taunt up so I can become the sole target of the entire enemy team on my already squishy class? (FYI, a good team will target a squishy DPS every time if their damage is reduced by 30% on any other target, it might as well be PvE)

 

Jugg DPS utility is worthless in arenas unless you're solo queueing and happen to be the only tank capable class. Although you're still going to get bursted down ASAP. Every true melee class has an "oh, shiz" button except Jugg. Mara: UR, Sin and Op: stealth out. PT can kite like a boss, they don't have to stay in melee range to do damage if they are being focused. I don't stance swap in arenas, I'd just die faster and drop the amount of damage I can do significantly. Carnage Mara> Vengeance Jugg, Rage Mara> Rage Jugg. There is just no reason to take a Jugg when a Mara can do better and live longer.

 

Also, what shield are you talking about in the part I highlighted?

Lol the problem is Smash output and not 30% AOE reduction.

 

This.

 

People keep arguing this or that, but fail to see that an instant AoE ability that is among the hardest hitting in game, requiring very little setup, executable every 9-15s, guaranteed to crit, simply doesn't belong in PvP.

 

Not to mention all the utility leap/charge has as rage/focus, a second gap closer usable when rooted, a plethora of snares,...

Edited November 26, 2013 by Obok