Until George Lucas' statements are retracted, Sidious will remain the strongest Sith. Of course LL Chee would have to retract his own statements, as well as all of the sourcebooks that state him as such.

Regardless, Vitiate hasn't really done anything that outdoes Sidious.

Until George Lucas' statements are retracted, Sidious will remain the strongest Sith. Of course LL Chee would have to retract his own statements, as well as all of the sourcebooks that state him as such.

 

Regardless, Vitiate hasn't really done anything that outdoes Sidious.

This, mostly the last bit. Vitiate hasn't shown anything that really puts him above Sidious, more to his feats is more on rituals and the like. Sidious outclasses Vitiate by a pretty huge margin even if you take away the statements, the feats are still there.

Well for one thing, there's no indication that Vitiate's going to be successful in his defeat of the Republic and Jedi... unlike Sidious.

Dude...not cool lmao.

Well for one thing, there's no indication that Vitiate's going to be successful in his defeat of the Republic and Jedi... unlike Sidious.

That was cunning and political skill not strength in the force, although Sidious does seem to have the edge in force strength.

Well, given that the combined efforts of Revan, Meetra and Scourge almost led to his death. I'd say Vitiate remains in second place. And I highly doubt George would let an EU creation knock off his own.

I wouldn't entirely say that just because more numbers went up against Vitiate in a fight compared to other Emperor's makes him the 2nd strongest there are other things to look at. Now his biggest feat was what? Using a ritual and draining X amount of Sith for immortality yes? Also being able to mind control, the 1st thing is good seeing as I can't recall any other Dark Lord doing such a thing even if it did take a ritual to do so. Mind Control I don't think any other before has done either, so yes he could be but best to make sure to look at everything.

Because aside from that, Vitiate seems to really lack in just about every other area with the exception of Lighting and even that seems debatable, he is good with it yes but just how powerful is the Lighting truly?

It seems by comparison in the TOR timeframe, Vitiate is the top dog compared to a bunch of piss ants except for the Jedi Knight it seems. However going further into time....he may have a leg up against some other Jedi and Sith, but I don't see him being over them.

Well, given that the combined efforts of Revan, Meetra and Scourge almost led to his death. I'd say Vitiate remains in second place. And I highly doubt George would let an EU creation knock off his own.

It's been a while since I read the novel but I don't remember Revan, Meetra, and Scourge being that close to defeating the emperor. I could be wrong though. Also, before I continue, let me emphasis that I am one of the very many people who acknowledge and know that Sidious is the strongest Sith.

Completely agree with you on the G. Lucas one upping an EU character. I've never understood why G. Lucas quotes to random journalists/commentaries are taken so seriously. I'm not saying that I outright completely disregard what GL says, but I will say that I give a GL quote some thought before I take it as true. GL has said multiple times that he does not follow the EU so why are his quotes about one upping EU characters taken so seriously?

Analogy, if an engineering designs and builds a greatly successful car and starts his/her own manufacturing company. Then said engineer hires other engineers to continue the innovation process to stay competitive. If one of the later engineers builds a better car, will the public still take the original designer's word for it that his/her's is better? Probably not.

And before anyone says that analogy does not apply as we are discussing a fictional universe and such things cannot be as analytically compared, I would say that since GL has franchised SW out to other people, he has opened the door to the possibly that one of them will create a character more powerful than any of his instead of ignorantly and stubbornly disregarding their prowess.

It's been a while since I read the novel but I don't remember Revan, Meetra, and Scourge being that close to defeating the emperor. I could be wrong though. Also, before I continue, let me emphasis that I am one of the very many people who acknowledge and know that Sidious is the strongest Sith.

It's debatable, there were a lot of visions in the book, and some people seem to interpret that because some showed Revan as victorious, then Revan would automatically have won if scourge hadn't betrayed them. This is a false analogy, Revan might have won, or he could have had his backside handed to him on a plate, there is no way of knowing (apart from torturing the author, which is so Non-PC).

Completely agree with you on the G. Lucas one upping an EU character. I've never understood why G. Lucas quotes to random journalists/commentaries are taken so seriously. I'm not saying that I outright completely disregard what GL says, but I will say that I give a GL quote some thought before I take it as true. GL has said multiple times that he does not follow the EU so why are his quotes about one upping EU characters taken so seriously?

Mainly because for over forty years George Lucas was the ultimate decider on what was canon or not, and silly quotes or not, these were the only indication on Cononicalhood (sadly this is a word).

Analogy, if an engineering designs and builds a greatly successful car and starts his/her own manufacturing company. Then said engineer hires other engineers to continue the innovation process to stay competitive. If one of the later engineers builds a better car, will the public still take the original designer's word for it that his/her's is better? Probably not.

 

And before anyone says that analogy does not apply as we are discussing a fictional universe and such things cannot be as analytically compared, I would say that since GL has franchised SW out to other people, he has opened the door to the possibly that one of them will create a character more powerful than any of his instead of ignorantly and stubbornly disregarding their prowess.

More than likely.

Well you are gonna be hard pressed for someone to make a character that is stronger then Luke/Sidious, because they have done some pretty big things, if anything the two have set the bar as far as mortal Force Users. Though there are characters already stronger then them, The Ones, Abeloth, Celesitals, I think you are looking for stronger in the mortal sense because there are other characters stronger just not mortal.

That is another thing...why are people in such a gripe that Sidious/Luke is the strongest Sith/Jedi?....

It doesn't really make sense. Even if by some chance, other characters surpass them...then your just gonna have this gripe all over again so does it really matter?

It's debatable, there were a lot of visions in the book, and some people seem to interpret that because some showed Revan as victorious, then Revan would automatically have won if scourge hadn't betrayed them. This is a false analogy, Revan might have won, or he could have had his backside handed to him on a plate, there is no way of knowing (apart from torturing the author, which is so Non-PC).

 

Mainly because for over forty years George Lucas was the ultimate decider on what was canon or not, and silly quotes or not, these were the only indication on Cononicalhood (sadly this is a word).

 

More than likely.

Maybe we (being SW fans) should convince D. Karpyshyn to post another spoiler/explanation on his website to clarify Revan and co's odds against the Emperor as he did this after "Dynasty of Evil" to clarify who was in charge of Zannah's body at the end.

I know that G.L is the decider of cannon and all that you said. However as he at times seems to just be stubbornly disregarding characters he knows nothing about I try to ignore his comments and let myself come to a certain conclusion. Whether or not my process is stupid or a violation of how things work is a different question and could be up for debate

Ps. I don't what you're saying when you say "More than likely"?

I wouldn't entirely say that just because more numbers went up against Vitiate in a fight compared to other Emperor's makes him the 2nd strongest there are other things to look at. Now his biggest feat was what? Using a ritual and draining X amount of Sith for immortality yes? Also being able to mind control, the 1st thing is good seeing as I can't recall any other Dark Lord doing such a thing even if it did take a ritual to do so. Mind Control I don't think any other before has done either, so yes he could be but best to make sure to look at everything.

 

Because aside from that, Vitiate seems to really lack in just about every other area with the exception of Lighting and even that seems debatable, he is good with it yes but just how powerful is the Lighting truly?

 

It seems by comparison in the TOR timeframe, Vitiate is the top dog compared to a bunch of piss ants except for the Jedi Knight it seems. However going further into time....he may have a leg up against some other Jedi and Sith, but I don't see him being over them.

Regardless, he is very powerful. Clearly he is more powerful than every Sith in the Sith Empire and every Jedi in the Jedi Order. Only maybe excluding the Hero of Tython, but that's based on the assumption it was the Emperor. And while I believe it was I'm also remembering that the Emperor was supposedly in a weakened state.

I can't think of many Sith who could topple him in terms of raw power. Jedi, perhaps, but not Sith.

Maybe we (being SW fans) should convince D. Karpyshyn to post another spoiler/explanation on his website to clarify Revan and co's odds against the Emperor as he did this after "Dynasty of Evil" to clarify who was in charge of Zannah's body at the end.

 

I know that G.L is the decider of cannon and all that you said. However as he at times seems to just be stubbornly disregarding characters he knows nothing about I try to ignore his comments and let myself come to a certain conclusion. Whether or not my process is stupid or a violation of how things work is a different question and could be up for debate

 

Ps. I don't what you're saying when you say "More than likely"?

Take away his quotes....you still have Sidious being the strongest, via showing of what he has done...among other things.

Completely agree with you on the G. Lucas one upping an EU character. I've never understood why G. Lucas quotes to random journalists/commentaries are taken so seriously. I'm not saying that I outright completely disregard what GL says, but I will say that I give a GL quote some thought before I take it as true. GL has said multiple times that he does not follow the EU so why are his quotes about one upping EU characters taken so seriously?

However this notion is imprinted in just about every source book that makes mention of him, and accepted by every author who writes about him and likely those that don't. So it is G-Canon in a strong sense. And the very notion of G-Canon is basically telling us: take these comments seriously.

But I, personally, would not want to see an EU character become more powerful than Sidious. That for me would be the line, the moment were the EU has grown to corpulent and sure of itself. That's the point where it needs to be shot. Forgive the dramatism but what I'm saying here is that the EU need to respect the original concept of Star Wars.

Sidious is the pinnacle of the Rule of Two, the only Sith in the history of the galaxy who has succeeded in destroying the Jedi. He is evil incarnate and a symbol of the darkside in the movies. So, he cannot help but be the most powerful Sith ever. To have another more powerful than him would suggest they are more evil than him and in turn degrade his character and the symbol he represents as a whole and that in turn would degrade the whole original trilogy.

suggest they are more evil than him

Another character more eviler then Sidious?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLyxmD_UAK4

Take away his quotes....you still have Sidious being the strongest, via showing of what he has done...among other things.

Yeah, I mentioned that in my first post before I moved forward in my G.L quotes stuff. I'm just saying my preference is to compare the feats of Sidious, Luke, etc. myself before I just lump onto whatever G.L says

Yeah, I mentioned that in my first post before I moved forward in my G.L quotes stuff. I'm just saying my preference is to compare the feats of Sidious, Luke, etc. myself before I just lump onto whatever G.L says

Ah ok.

In this case its more than just quotes. Quotes like 'the dark side of the Force is a cancer' I take with a heavy heaping of salt because he says the opposite the next day.

 

However this notion is imprinted in just about every source book that makes mention of him, and accepted by every author who writes about him and likely those that don't. So it is G-Canon in a strong sense. And the very notion of G-Canon is basically telling us: take these comments seriously.

 

But I, personally, would not want to see an EU character become more powerful than Sidious. That for me would be the line, the moment were the EU has grown to corpulent and sure of itself. That's the point where it needs to be shot. Forgive the dramatism but what I'm saying here is that the EU need to respect the original concept of Star Wars.

 

Sidious is the pinnacle of the Rule of Two, the only Sith in the history of the galaxy who has succeeded in destroying the Jedi. He is evil incarnate and a symbol of the darkside in the movies. So, he cannot help but be the most powerful Sith ever. To have another more powerful than him would suggest they are more evil than him and in turn degrade his character and the symbol he represents as a whole and that in turn would degrade the whole original trilogy.

I agree with you on all that you are saying. My point is just that I rely on/prefer to look the many sources you refer to citing Sidious power as justification to him being #1 Sith instead of just taking a G.L quote at face value. I mentioned in my original post before I continued to the G.L quotes argument that I acknowledge and have never denied Sidious the #1 Sith title. I was focusing on the my irritability of some of G.L quotes given in particular that he's doesn't follow the EU and never put the Sidious #1 thing in question. Apologize if any confusion.

I agree with you on all that you are saying. My point is just that I rely on/prefer to look the many sources you refer to citing Sidious power as justification to him being #1 Sith instead of just taking a G.L quote at face value. I mentioned in my original post before I continued to the G.L quotes argument that I acknowledge and have never denied Sidious the #1 Sith title. I was focusing on the my irritability of some of G.L quotes given in particular that he's doesn't follow the EU and never put the Sidious #1 thing in question. Apologize if any confusion.

However, really, on this matter, a G-Canon statement is all you need. Because we have to remember this is what the writers use as well, all the writers. If you've got a G-Canon statement saying Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever then you can do with his powers whatever the hell you want. Like, I don't know, give him the ability to call down Force storms that can tear through the very fabric of space.

As you can imagine, it can get a little silly. /sigh

Maybe we (being SW fans) Ps. I don't what you're saying when you say "More than likely"?

I was agreeing with you that Lucas probably does dismiss most EU characters out of habit, rather than examining them.

Of course, it should be a combination of the too. And I realise your standpoint, I'm just explaining the significance and importance of G.L statements in general.

 

However, really, on this matter, a G-Canon statement is all you need. Because we have to remember this is what the writers use as well, all the writers. If you've got a G-Canon statement saying Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever then you can do with his powers whatever the hell you want. Like, I don't know, give him the ability to call down Force storms that can tear through the very fabric of space.

 

As you can imagine, it can get a little silly. /sigh

Not nearly as silly as some other characters, you wanna talk powerful have a look at other characters from other franchises lol.

And I highly doubt George would let an EU creation knock off his own.

This is the only reason Sidious will be the first for a very long time.

I am sure everyone with some modicum of independent thinking feels something is not right.While Sidious is one of the strongest sith,maybe the strongest,he is just that - a sith lord.Vitiate is something entirely different.

This is the only reason Sidious will be the first for a very long time.

 

I am sure everyone with some modicum of independent thinking feels something is not right.While Sidious is one of the strongest sith,maybe the strongest,he is just that - a sith lord.Vitiate is something entirely different.

Vitiate, to me, just comes across as insane.

Completely the opposite. If Sidious were knocked off his pedestal. It would feel wrong. This guy is the pinnacle of evil, the villain of all villains. Both in the movies and outside of it. He is the accumulation of countless study into the darkside, the apex of the Rule of Two. To think that he was only second best, would just not seem right. Especially seconded by another Emperor. I mean Sidious is the Emperor. Anyone not familiar with the EU would think such a thing laughable and like pass it off as 'fanfiction'.

 

Vitiate, to me, just comes across as insane.

^This. Sidious is the culmination of thousands of years of Sith teachings. Everyone before him would be just the building blocks for his Empire, and those that come after him are just trying to imitate his Empire.

Sidious is the villain of the entire Star Wars universe. For him to be outdone by another Sith would be wrong.