I wish people would understand that in regular warzones, extreme coordination isn't as vital for a win like in ranked.

 

In regular warzones, individual skill is the largest contributing factor to a win.

 

I know most people that post here probably think they are the top of their class. However, I know a majority of them don't augment their gear, or min/max. (If they even know what that means)

 

For regs, Individual Skill > Extreme Coordination (This accounts for entire team)

I know that there are enough of them to impact my enjoyment of the game.

 

So, it's like art? You can't explain what you like but you'll tell us when you see it?

 

Here's an easy question for all the premade haterz: over time, in a solo unranked WZ queue, what percentage of matches are you expecting to win? For your "enjoyment of the game" to be sustained, what's the number? It is about the winning, after all.

 

Maybe BW could implement a "My Team Wins" WZ queue that guaranteed bads a victory. That way, when you're getting frustrated with solo unranked, you can do something to boost your self-image. Or, you can kick the **** of the NPCs in the Heroics you skipped over while leveling up--you'd feel better, and it would help you gear your alts :-b

Setting aside, for the moment, this apparent premade apocalypse in SWTOR: hopefully, we can all acknowledge that BW has created an objective-based WZ model that rewards highly coordinated play (valor points, commendations, etc.), and penalizes uncoordinated play (sad faces all around, heads banging on keyboards, group therapy, etc.). And, highly coordinated play is rewarded regardless of whether or not you have prior intent to do so.

 

Given this, it stands to reason that the complainers on this thread are looking for a queue that provides the OPPOSITE: rewards for highly uncoordinated play. I am certainly not an expert on incentive models, but what I do know is that humans (and most primate species) will try to game them to their advantage. Knowing this, the monstrous premades (I hear they are also a primate species) would find a way to "ruin" any new solo WZ queue that BW created (resulting in yet another 600 page thread), unless the incentive structure is changed.

 

This is the only thing that makes sense to me at this point. Unless: the only other logical explanation is that the complainers want the same incentives as players who put effort into coordinated gameplay, but they don't want to be bothered to actually put effort into coordination. It's like a soccer league for preschoolers: you can't keep score, and everyone gets a trophy. I hear WoW offers this sort of gameplay.

 

Premades are only a problem in so far as they share a queue with solo player's. By joining or forming a premade I would become a part of the problem, and I refuse to do that.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Exly

Screw it. Bioware is aware of the issue yet does nothing at all, least of all acknowledging the issue.

 

I'm gonna take my money elsewhere. Hopefully there's be other MMO's with a bit more semblance of balanced PVP, because this is not worth it.

 

Recommandations, anyone?

Edited October 25, 2013 by vennian

Screw it. Bioware is aware of the issue yet does nothing at all, least of all acknowledging the issue.

 

I'm gonna take my money elsewhere. Hopefully there's be other MMO's with a bit more semblance of balanced PVP, because this is not worth it.

 

Recommandations, anyone?

 

My little sister seems to enjoy Hello Kitty Island Adventure. It's solo AND care free.

apparently you missed the "solo ranked queue". I never see premades in it

 

The solo ranked queue only grants access to arenas, and I wanted to do 8v8's. I guess I could have done solo ranked, or done some dailies or crafting or space missions or done something else, but I was in the mood to do 8v8's, and premades ruined that mood for me.

In regular warzones, individual skill is the largest contributing factor to a win.

^this.

I wish people would understand that in regular warzones, extreme coordination isn't as vital for a win like in ranked.

 

Except when the opposing team that you are facing is highly coordinated.

Except when the opposing team that you are facing is highly coordinated.

 

Yeah but this can be achieved by pugs with basic understandings of focus fire (at this point you should know who the heavy hitters are and best healers on your server) with target markers and situational awareness. Knowing which node needs help based off of number of allies at a node and how many of the other team is there. If you have 6 teammates fighting 3 players and no one is in the spawn it shouldn't take much to realize the off node is getting attacked and it goes with some random not calling incomings.

 

It's the little things that a lot of players simply don't do, or they can do and are not that good at it.

Back in reality, far far away from the "ought to" world, PUgs don't focus fire, don't cap, don't defend, don't have awareness etc etc as efficient as the so-called premades. This is natural and it will never change so there is little point in constructing theories which are out of touch with reality. In PUGs the random or unpredictable factor is higher than in the so-called premades and that is what gives, in general, the so-called premades the edge. So far so good? OK. So now we have one side with higher liabilities than other, one side has higher chance to win than the other, and its like that by design. That is why there are calls for the design to change, to give everyone as equal chance as possible. I know its complex ... Edited October 25, 2013 by knownastherat

Back in reality, far far away from the "ought to" world, PUgs don't focus fire, don't cap, don't defend, don't have awareness etc etc as efficient as the so-called premades. This is natural and it will never change so there is little point in constructing theories which are out of touch with reality. In PUGs the random or unpredictable factor is higher than in the so-called premades and that is what gives, in general, the so-called premades the edge. So far so good? OK. So now we have one side with higher liabilities than other, one side has higher chance to win than the other, and its like that by design. That is why there are calls for the design to change, to give everyone as equal chance as possible. I know its complex ...

 

I think what is most important to remember is the average player is just not good. This is the same for pugs and for premades. You can have excellent pug players and excellent players which form groups but the average player far outweighs the good ones.

 

The only real thing that would solve this and has been brought up many a times in this thread is a general matchmaking system.

I think what is most important to remember is the average player is just not good. This is the same for pugs and for premades. You can have excellent pug players and excellent players which form groups but the average player far outweighs the good ones.

 

The only real thing that would solve this and has been brought up many a times in this thread is a general matchmaking system.

 

Matchmaking wouldn't solve anything. If bad players outweigh the good ones and matchmaking only allows good players to play against other good players, then the result is that good players will have to wait significantly longer for WZ pops. If matchmaking puts you in that top tier, then you will not get a WZ unless 15 other people in the top tier are also queued in at the same time as you. It would actually have to be more than 15 in all likeliness because teams have to be faction balanced. You either need 8 people from two factions or 16 people from one faction. If you have 12 and 4, no one gets a pop for anything other than arenas. I can't speak for every server, but on Ebon Hawke, matchmaking would punish you for being too good.

Matchmaking wouldn't solve anything. If bad players outweigh the good ones and matchmaking only allows good players to play against other good players, then the result is that good players will have to wait significantly longer for WZ pops. If matchmaking puts you in that top tier, then you will not get a WZ unless 15 other people in the top tier are also queued in at the same time as you. It would actually have to be more than 15 in all likeliness because teams have to be faction balanced. You either need 8 people from two factions or 16 people from one faction. If you have 12 and 4, no one gets a pop for anything other than arenas. I can't speak for every server, but on Ebon Hawke, matchmaking would punish you for being too good.

 

It wont lock you out if the criteria is not met. You'll still have a chance if you're in a bottom tier to get matched with better players it's just less of a chance of it happening.

Yeah but this can be achieved by pugs with basic understandings of focus fire (at this point you should know who the heavy hitters are and best healers on your server) with target markers and situational awareness. Knowing which node needs help based off of number of allies at a node and how many of the other team is there. If you have 6 teammates fighting 3 players and no one is in the spawn it shouldn't take much to realize the off node is getting attacked and it goes with some random not calling incomings.

 

It's the little things that a lot of players simply don't do, or they can do and are not that good at it.

 

Yeah, and if the other team has four stealthers you will need more than one node guard. I know that not every match is winnable, and that there are things that people can due to increase their chances of winning. But premades have too much of an advantage over random pugs, and I would rather stop queueing while they are playing than to act as content for them while they practice for ranked.

Yeah, and if the other team has four stealthers you will need more than one node guard. I know that not every match is winnable, and that there are things that people can due to increase their chances of winning. But premades have too much of an advantage over random pugs, and I would rather stop queueing while they are playing than to act as content for them while they practice for ranked.

 

Do what you got too do. I rarely play this game and with the announcement of season one being delayed I'm pretty much just waiting for BF4.

Here's an easy question for all the premade haterz: over time, in a solo unranked WZ queue, what percentage of matches are you expecting to win? For your "enjoyment of the game" to be sustained, what's the number?

 

Still waiting for someone to answer my question. Any brave souls?

I'll bite

 

90%

 

kiddin. 30% win percentage is still tolerable provided there are plenty of queue pops. Otherwise, (specially in non/pvp servers) 50% coz wzs get harder to come by after most people are done with dailies

Still waiting for someone to answer my question. Any brave souls?

The problem with your question is, it implies that people are complaining, because they don't win enough games.

But that's not the case, people are complaining that they don't have fun, if they get farmed all the time by well organized TS pre-mades.

I don't think, that the state of the game is bad enough to ruin PVP, but I had several games too, where I questioned the other sides motivation to play non-ranked warzones.

 

BW should open ranked for daily and weekly PVP-Quests and bring back 8 vs. 8 ranked warzone. If they put it in the same queue than 4 vs. 4, nobody should be harmed.

 

Edit: I'm not a pre-made hater.

Edited October 27, 2013 by DerTaran

Still waiting for someone to answer my question. Any brave souls?

 

While I am not premade hater, I am not happy with the system in place.

 

To answer the question, its hard to say. Could be around 75% lost games but that is pulling numbers out of nowhere. I do not expect win/lose ratios, I expect fighting chance, because PvP is figthing and fighting is fun. Though, I adjusted. As soon I as see there is no fighting chance I quit wz .. wundebar .. but maybe I will get some haters too. GG

Still waiting for someone to answer my question. Any brave souls?

 

I would say 30 - 60 % depending on the hour, and a fluctuation in knowledge base of the player during those hours. Statistical this feels like reasonable numbers. And I think that on a non-PVP server you know when you gonna lose and when you gonna win. This depending how much you PVP, and haven't been discouraged if you as a beginner play the 'wrong' hours. Those when you're most likely to face premades.

Edited October 27, 2013 by t-darko

Virtually no reps pvp at all, all games imp on imp and my server sees virtually no solo ranked arena at all.

 

Groups should have their own queue and solo should be able to queue for wz and ranked arena at the same time and id make all wz cross-server too.

Virtually no reps pvp at all, all games imp on imp and my server sees virtually no solo ranked arena at all.

 

Groups should have their own queue and solo should be able to queue for wz and ranked arena at the same time and id make all wz cross-server too.

 

first of all, which server are you on?

Second, cross server is not exactly simple, everyone talks about it like its a 5 minute process to set up, there are a lot of bugs to overcome before you can even come close to releasing one, unless you people want Bioware to give us a crappy prototype cross server that is a buggy piece of crap that no one will enjoy and ruin pvp.

30% win percentage is still tolerable provided there are plenty of queue pops. Otherwise, (specially in non/pvp servers) 50% coz wzs get harder to come by after most people are done with dailies

 

Thank YOU for a rational response! One would assume, with a completely random (or some sort of "balanced team / random by class") assignment system, a random player could expect to win 50% of the time. However, even if BW had an effective random assignment system, you still end up with biased teams. Why?

 

(1) Regardless of whether they're premade or not, players that queue as a group are likely to be more experienced / better geared than PUG teams. The longer a user has played, the more likely they are to find other players that they're interested in playing with. In addition, a "group team" is likely to be designed for role balance, where we all know that BW provides little in the way of role balance in solo unranked queue. As a result of these two issues, a "group team" is likely to have a better than 50% win rate against a true random draw.

 

(2) Higher skilled / geared players are more likely to drop out of a solo unranked team if they're unhappy with team composition or player quality. I continue to argue that this is the larger issue, because when higher ranked players drop out of a "random" assignment (and I see this a LOT more than I see premade teams), the likelihood of the remaining team members (+ adds) scoring a win is reduced. It's also pretty poor sportsmanship, but that's another discussion.

 

Given these issues, less experienced players are more likely to be on losing teams than experienced players in a random assignment model that doesn't provide penalties for grouping or dropping. The level of bias these issues really introduce would require data from BW, and some analysis. However, whether or not this bothers you is a matter of psychology, not statistics. On a PvE server, with a decent amount of solo unranked WZ experience at Lvl55, I've gotten to the point where I'm averaging close to a 30% win rate. As I've said previously, I've also played enough on the JC server that I can look at the toons on my team and have a pretty good sense of whether we're going to be competitive or not. As a result, I could boost my win rate by dropping teams that lack experience, but that's not how I roll.

 

So, complain about premades if you want. From my PoV it's part of the game that's not going to change, because there will always be players that try to game the environment regardless of what disincentives or alternatives you put in place, because that's what ***hats do, just like IRL.

Individual Skill is the largest contributing factor for regular warzones.

Duran'del Here:

It seems this man believes playing with your friends in a game that is meant to be played with said friend(s) is illegal....