No. It wouldn't make for a better story. It would make for an equally fleshed story told in a different way. Story quality is not the same as story form.

Or rather it comes out feeling like terribly written fanfic, and as someone who loves to read terribly written fanfic, I don't think that makes for a better game story.

Mind you, I'm of the opinion most players ignore the story anyways, or just catch glimpses of it. Seems to be the case for most MMOs ime.

Or rather it comes out feeling like terribly written fanfic, and as someone who loves to read terribly written fanfic, I don't think that makes for a better game story.

Again, I disagree. Herosexuality is a way of presenting an interactive story and has no impact on story quality. Well-written content including herosexuality will still look well-written. Fan-fiction is not interactive and cannot be held to the same criteria.

Again, I disagree. Herosexuality is a way of presenting an interactive story and has no impact on story quality. Well-written content including herosexuality will still look well-written. Fan-fiction is not interactive and cannot be held to the same criteria.

I guess this comes down to a matter of faith in the writers. You have it, I don't

I've never seen the companions able to change race. Where exactly do you see the companions changing races? Vette's designs are all Twileks, I've never seen her have a human species. Where exactly do you see people changing the species of their character?

Race, not species. There is a difference. Skin color might not carry much connotation in the Star Wars universe, but it certainly does in ours. If you argue that skin color doesn't have connotation in the SWU and that's why it's OK to be able to change your companion's race at will, I can then argue that sexual orientation should carry just as little connotation and be just as malleable.

The rest of your post is really irrelevant. More power to you if you want to experience a story set in stone the way it was envisioned. That's not what BioWare games are, though. Go read a book. I can recommend several, both in and out of the SWU, that are great.

BioWare games are about player choice and molding the story they are telling into the version of that story you want to hear. It's like a parallel universes thing. There's one timeline with a thousand different variations on the details.

No, it's not like changing the Dread Masters, because that would be a fundamental change to the story. Having a romance with Mako (to continue using her as the example) doesn't fundamentally change the story. That's already a part of the story in place, all I'm asking is not to be barred out of it based on my gender. Who I romance has no bearing on the storyline at large.

If you can provide me equal opportunity to find romance with SGR companions without using herosexuality, then more power to you. But guess what, that means you're gonna need to make a whole lot more companions. Giving me a character I don't like to romance in place of a character I adore on the premise that sexuality is immutable even on a meta-game level is unacceptable. So you would need to create companions of similar qualities to the ones that exist already, and make them SGR. It makes so much more sense to make the existing companions herosexual.

I do not play this game to pine after someone I can't have. I play it to channel the force, shoot lightening from my hands, swing a lightsaber, pilot a starship, conquer the galaxy, and get the girl. This game is a fantasy and I shouldn't be barred from a part of that fantasy just because of my preferred gender.

It's ridiculous that you would even make this argument. Companions are already herosexual. You can be any species, any race, any body type. You can be scarred and hideous, you can be the exact definition of what they consider a terrible person. None of that matters, you are the hero and as long as you're the right gender, they will love you. Drawing that gender line makes ZERO logical sense in the context of the game.

You can claim you don't think that companions should be so open to love with opposite gender PCs either, but once again, that's irrelevant. That isn't the game we are playing.

You seriously don't seem to grasp the concept of the story vs the meta-story. The story as you experience it IS the story. Just because a character would still love you if you were the same gender doesn't make them bi. They CAN be, if the writers decide to make that distinction, otherwise when you play through as opposite gender they are straight and when you play as same gender they are gay. It has no impact on the story. The characters are MECHANICALLY herosexual, but in the STORY they are just whatever sexuality fits into the way you play it out.

In Mass Effect if you don't romance Garrus or Tali they end up together. That doesn't mean if you romance one of them they will be pining for the other and going behind your back. It's just one way the story can unfold, and if you make choices counter to that path, it doesn't unfold that way.

Just like the second you choose a Dark Side option, that is what happened in your personal story. The fact that your buddy can choose a Light Side option when he plays has no bearing on your own version of the story.

My Mako can be gay and it can make absolute sense to my story. Your Mako can be straight and make absolute sense to your story. These two things do not conflict.

I guess this comes down to a matter of faith in the writers. You have it, I don't

That's ridiculous. They can handle all the other choice and variation in the story, but this one is out of their grasp? How do you draw that conclusion? Somehow they can write perfectly acceptable and compelling SGR romances if they make them new characters, but they wouldn't be able to handle it with existing companions? How does that even make sense?

The rest of your post is really irrelevant. More power to you if you want to experience a story set in stone the way it was envisioned. That's not what BioWare games are, though. Go read a book. I can recommend several, both in and out of the SWU, that are great.

I'd have to say, you basically lost me right here.

So, since I see the game playing out as all the stories starting off at various point A1-A8, then all converging on point C. Thusly, tieing the story up into one universe shared by all, my opinion on how the game should go is completely terrible because...why exactly? o.O

By your logic, if you want to experience a game that doesn't have what you want in it, you should go experience another game. Now obviously, you don't want to. But because I like a storyline in what basically amounts to an EU of Star Wars, and like the idea of them setting things in stone as much as they can, while giving some wiggle room, I'm...some...bad...player?

Really, I have yet to see a storyline that is as free as people like to make out (I hear Agent does it the best, but still low level on my agent).

Maybe I'd see it differently if the game was set after RotJ, rather than ancient history *shrug* Still, basically lost me on that comment. "The whole 'this is how it should be because I like it this way instead of how you may like it, so go read a book instead'" feels very much like....*shrug*

Eh, doesn't matter, and really, "This is how Bioware does their games." is also lost on me, for I havent played the other Bioware games. But if we're basing TOR on how BW does their other games, then shouldn't all of what you said been in the game a year ago at launch, because that's just how BW does their game? Or do we start making exceptions to "How BW makes their games"?

I've made my point, and I think it holds up to logic and the spirit of the game more than yours. I'm not going to keep explaining it repeatedly just because you either can't understand or willfully won't. I never said your gameplay preferences aren't valid or that they make you somehow terrible. That's you taking criticisms of your ideas personally.

I've explained how the spirit of the game is not one of a story set into stone. Even when you admit that the story should give "some wiggle room," you arbitrarily draw the line at sexuality. I've yet to see a good argument for WHY that ought to be the line.

Honestly though, I'm not trying to change your mind. That's not the point. If this were a private conversation, I wouldn't bother. My goal is just to provide a public rebuttal to arguments I find flawed. I'm bias of course, but I feel I've done that.

I've made my point, and I think it holds up to logic and the spirit of the game more than yours. I'm not going to keep explaining it repeatedly just because you either can't understand or willfully won't. I never said your gameplay preferences aren't valid or that they make you somehow terrible. That's you taking criticisms of your ideas personally.

 

I've explained how the spirit of the game is not one of a story set into stone. Even when you admit that the story should give "some wiggle room," you arbitrarily draw the line at sexuality. I've yet to see a good argument for WHY that ought to be the line.

 

Honestly though, I'm not trying to change your mind. That's not the point. If this were a private conversation, I wouldn't bother. My goal is just to provide a public rebuttal to arguments I find flawed. I'm bias of course, but I feel I've done that.

I have not. By wiggle room, I meant actions. I thought that was just obvious.

Now, if they made the companions less fleshed out, say you choose their names, you choose their looks, all when you meet them, where you put effort into creating them yourself then it makes things different.

For instance, let's say the game was set just after RotJ, and you get Han Solo as a companion, we know he's not SGR...or OGR for that matter, due to him ending with Leia.

If they in the RotJ era could see where Mako ended up, it should be roughly the same spot. Because she's become a named character as part of SW Lore.

Hmmm...for a MMO, BW really should have given more freedom to customize characters and companions.

I have not. By wiggle room, I meant actions. I thought that was just obvious.

 

Now, if they made the companions less fleshed out, say you choose their names, you choose their looks, all when you meet them, where you put effort into creating them yourself then it makes things different.

 

*snip*

 

Hmmm...for a MMO, BW really should have given more freedom to customize characters and companions.

That would be wonderful, but also extremely difficult. I'd love to create my own crew, but how would that even be feasible? It's already weird no one ever says my player character's name, no one ever being referred to by name on my crew would be freaky. Plus, the characters would either have to be much more generic, or they would have to record a great deal of varied dialogue.

They already made their best stab at customized companions with the variety of customization items. That's what I was talking about being able to change races. (which again, is skin color, not species)

For instance, let's say the game was set just after RotJ, and you get Han Solo as a companion, we know he's not SGR...or OGR for that matter, due to him ending with Leia.

We wouldn't get Han Solo though. We'd get a new companion that can take part of our adventures in the same way the ones we have now do. That would be like expecting us to have Zayne Carrick as a companion. Han Solo is one of the roles WE fill, or perhaps one of the characters we meet, but not one of our companions. Unless we were playing through the main saga, in which case we'd be Luke, and the details would be malleable because that is the nature of the game.

These are NOT characters with established histories and more importantly, with established sexualities. Your argument doesn't hold up.

If they in the RotJ era could see where Mako ended up, it should be roughly the same spot. Because she's become a named character as part of SW Lore.

Okay, so the fact that Mako can either be in a relationship with the Hero or not when he's male is an okay variant, but it's not acceptable to allow her to be with the character if she's female? I'm sorry but all your reasoning is full of holes.

Okay, so the fact that Mako can either be in a relationship with the Hero or not when he's male is an okay variant, but it's not acceptable to allow her to be with the character if she's female? I'm sorry but all your reasoning is full of holes.

Not at all. I figure there's likely a prefered gender for all the classes too. According to threads on the subject, others do as well.

It's another one of those things where they make game play mechanics not fit the lore due to game balance. Like Lightsabers not acting like lightsabers. Or Jedi/Sith not being as dangerous as Jedi/Sith are suppossed to be in Star Wars.

Not at all. I figure there's likely a prefered gender for all the classes too. According to threads on the subject, others do as well.

I think (and fervently hope) that you're wrong regarding a preferred gender for classes. As far as I can tell gender is entirely irrelevant for gameplay and story purposes with the single exception of romances. This is one of the reasons I think herosexuality makes the most sense. Not only that but as you point out there are many concessions made for mechanical purposes. Lightsabers, for example. Herosexuality not only seems to be a sensible one but a very workable one.

I think (and fervently hope) that you're wrong regarding a preferred gender for classes. As far as I can tell gender is entirely irrelevant for gameplay and story purposes with the single exception of romances. This is one of the reasons I think herosexuality makes the most sense. Not only that but as you point out there are many concessions made for mechanical purposes. Lightsabers, for example. Herosexuality not only seems to be a sensible one but a very workable one.

Jupp, keeping my fingers crossed for herosexuality as well. That way it think there will be more romances on the table for f/f- and m/m-relationships. Or that is what I believe at least. Will be fun to see how the relationships in Makeb plays out, don't have any single character's at lvl 50 so I will just have to read about it here.

I am not really a fan of herosexuality. I'd much rather NPCs/Companions had their own sexualities that are determined for that character (as with every other attribute) right from the start (or as part of a developing character arc). But I know enough about game making to know that catering to every nuance of human sexuality in interactive romance storytelling is simply not possible.

Herosexuality is very much a compromise. It is a simplification necessary to cater to the widest number of players. In the end, it's a compromise I'm willing to live with, as I can gloss over the inconsistencies in characterization (head canon things that don't fit or work as well as they should, for example).

It's not lazy story telling, it's not poor design... It's a compromise, which means it isn't exactly good story telling either, nor is it the best design.

I think (and fervently hope) that you're wrong regarding a preferred gender for classes.

"As far as I'm concerned, the "canonical" identities of player classes are determined solely by their individual players."

~Hall Hood, @hallhood, 12/10/12 0940

Just to let you guys know, the now-Lead Writer does not believe in there being a dictated canon identity for each class.

It's not lazy story telling, it's not poor design... It's a compromise, which means it isn't exactly good story telling either, nor is it the best design.

I agree it can be legitimately viewed as a compromise but I think in terms of 'best design', well, that entirely depends on your definition of 'best'. If the design you're going for is the most inclusive design in which the player can have the biggest impact on the romantic story then herosexuality probably is the best design. Frankly I feel that while in the case of SWTOR in particular it probably would be a compromise, in general terms herosexuality doesn't need to be a compromise in the slightest.

The rules are different for interactive stories than for static stories, and there's different levels of player interaction. Say they made a game with a character - we'll call them Alex because it's nice and gender-neutral - who could be romanced by a PC of any gender available at character creation. The overall story is well-written and well-paced, it's intriguing, it's got tension in the right parts and lets the player relax and explore at other points. Just funny enough without being too comedic; just sad enough without being so tragic it's ludicrous.

The player takes a shine to Alex. Heretofore Alex has shown no interest in the player, nor has Alex related tales of exploits with anyone previously. The PC initiates romance with Alex - maybe successfully, maybe not.

At that point the player is, in effect, writing part of the story - the part where the PC and Alex either get together or crash and burn. It also determines the sexuality form of the relationship they enter into - heterosexual if they're the opposite gender, homosexual if they aren't.

Either option is just as valid because that's what the story does, it gives the player that power. It's an interactive story. While some interactive stories would give enough control to determine a relationship but not the sexuality form of that relationship, this one does.

That's not necessarily a compromise and it's certainly not a design flaw. It's an interactive story that has a different level of functional player control. Hell, in some games (such as Deep Space 3, which I played only recently) the player doesn't even have control of major plot choices, relationships or even dialogue. And that's not a design flaw either, it's just a story told in a different way (though the story is static in DS3's case - it doesn't change no matter how many playthroughs you try because there are no actual choices to make).

 

"As far as I'm concerned, the "canonical" identities of player classes are determined solely by their individual players."

~Hall Hood, @hallhood, 12/10/12 0940

 

Just to let you guys know, the now-Lead Writer does not believe in there being a dictated canon identity for each class.

Good to know. So my Sith can be the one to bring balance to the force and the writers need to make that a possibility!

Also, compromise is likely the better term for what I was looking for. Still think it's lazy, but hey, it worked for Avatar, go with the most easy to follow plot that can appeal to the masses to rake in the money.

well, i'm a little upset that the character i wanted a sgr on can't do it, but oh well. i'll get over it i guess :/

btw, does anyone know if you can cheat on your current love interest with these new ones??

well, i'm a little upset that the character i wanted a sgr on can't do it, but oh well. i'll get over it i guess :/

 

btw, does anyone know if you can cheat on your current love interest with these new ones??

You most definitely can, from the news I've heard. No references are made to previous romances, even if you bring the companion with you.

On that note though, they should have them equally dispersed over both factions and genders.

Like in RL?

Nope. Because if we had it like in real life, OGR would be the predominate. It's called compromise. People drag RL into a game for reason to have something in the game. Then, when it's convenient, RL goes back out the window for "it's a game" to allow the something they want to be even better.

It's a game, and having one type or another being the predominate would suck for those that want to play a different way, so have the OGR/SGR opportunities equally spread out. But I think there should be a level of compromise involved, in which not everyone is bi. Having everyone who is flirt-able being bi breaks immersion for me (personally).

That's a fair point, and one that's been voiced many times, but the tricky thing is: who says what personalities 'fit' a given sexuality?

The story writer of that character.

Doesn't matter what a person's overt characteristics are like... if the story writer says that person is straight/gay/bi, then that's what they are.

The story writer of that character.

 

Doesn't matter what a person's overt characteristics are like... if the story writer says that person is straight/gay/bi, then that's what they are.

Too bad the writers haven't come out and said what the companion's sexualities are, but if Quinn, an upstanding Imperial citizen, can be attracted to, and fall in love with, an alien, it stands to reason he could do so with a man.

Hell, I expect in the Empire, same-gender relationships between humans are more preferable than opposite-gender relationships between humans and aliens.

Giving me a character I don't like to romance in place of a character I adore on the premise that sexuality is immutable even on a meta-game level is unacceptable.

And yet I have to ask the question why? That's the way it is in RL. You drag RL in to get SGR in, but then toss it out the moment it's not convenient anymore? There needs to be a bit of give and take on this.

I want to confirm that what Dulfy stated is correct. I do want to assure you though that with any future SGRA releases it will be our goal to keep things more balanced across faction and gender.

 

-eric

What was the logic in doing this? I must ask!

If you start something (especially this controversial) then I would expect you all to at least deliver in full and not push through a half finished product.

And yet I have to ask the question why? That's the way it is in RL. You drag RL in to get SGR in, but then toss it out the moment it's not convenient anymore? There needs to be a bit of give and take on this.

I identify as lesbian IRL, I relate better to female character, and I relate better to female/female romances. It should absolutely be an option for me to play lesbian characters. Not because it reflects RL to have LGBT people in the game (which it does anyway), but because I, as a lesbian, want to have the option to play a character like me. (This should go for everyone, I add for clarity, not just me.)

The other thing to bear in mind is that there are many many people playing each class - and yet the storyline acts like you are the only one of that class. Having one or two members of the crew for that character being bisexual (or potentially gay/lesbian) is quite possible and within the proportions you'd expect for a universe filled with billions of people*. Even if every class has two herosexual companions (which may well be the way things work out, if they ever get around to adding SGRA with companions), it's still quite possible/realistic statistically speaking**.

Sometimes people with things/attributes in common group together. Shocking, I know.

* Even if every single member of that character's crew were gay/lesbian or bisexual, it would still be statistically possible.

** To expand on the point: Straight PCs may never realize that their same gender companions can potentially go both ways, as the companion only reacts to the PCs interactions with them, and if that PC never flirts, that companion will seem sexually neutral (ie: indeterminate sexuality) or straight depending on how the player wishes to read it. Likewise opposite gender companions will react when flirted with by the PC, therefore may seem straight.

Race, not species. There is a difference. Skin color might not carry much connotation in the Star Wars universe, but it certainly does in ours. If you argue that skin color doesn't have connotation in the SWU and that's why it's OK to be able to change your companion's race at will, I can then argue that sexual orientation should carry just as little connotation and be just as malleable.

 

...

I just had to comment on this, as I find it interesting.

I would like to believe (optimist that I am) that were humanity on this planet find itself in a Galactic environment, populated with sophisticated civilized life considerably different on a biological scale, that the notion of skin color defining race would fall away. That people of Earth-stock would consider themselves of one race -- the Human Race -- as opposed to the other races in the galaxy.

When I'm building a character in TOR, skin color is merely an aesthetic that I pick for whatever reason I feel like at the time. I don't consider I'm making a white person or a black person or a yellow person or a blue person. I do consider I'm making a Human or a Miraluka or a Twi'lek though.

When I put on a companion customization and their skin changes color, I don't consider I'm changing their race. Actually, until your post above, my mind didn't even go there at all.

Now, I'm not trying to argue about weather or not there should be a "companion customization" that changes sexuality. But I am trying to say that I consider skin color in this game has no bearing on race.