Vader didn't do it, even after Luke went rampage, he still didn't use his Force techniques or taunt Luke like Dooku once did to distract him.

 

He didn't want to kill his son, it's quite obvious in the movies.

Many many dissertations into the whys and hows of cloning Padme. Many are very interesting.

However, I have a question followed by an observation:

Why would Ani clone Padme? His naughty bits were completely burnt off by lava. Bitter?

Anakin was more obsessed with Padme than in love with her. Does he want to to sit around and chat?

He could just program her personality into a droid. A.I. luv

Vader did taunt Luke like Dooku did to get him to give in to the dark side. Regardless your arguing with a canon source here so I'm afraid their is no room for debate.

I mean like Dooku's trick in the novel, distract him from the rampage.

[*]For one you are completely missing the point again. Quit telling me I'm ignoring what happened in the movies because that's irrelevant. It doesn't matter what Luke thinks, or what Padme thinks, all that matters is what Vader thinks. And Vader believes he is beyond redemption and frankly he does not want to be saved. Luke made him see the truth but Luke isn't here right now, is he? Hence, he will never clone Padme with the intention of helping him return to the light, because he doesn't want to and doesn't think its possible, the logic of such an action is just perverse.

Vader thought he's beyond redemption because Padme is dead and he had no choice but to stay in the Dark Side, that's been told quite well in the end of RotS novel, if Padme could come back, that's a different story.

[*]Padme doesn't what to join Vader and rule the galaxy - that is the path she cannot follow. So she would not want to get married to him and do just that which would just be weird because he's only half human and can't even touch her. Vader knows this, he knows that as Vader they can never ever be together. Again, he believes Anakin Skywalker is dead and Padme fell in love with Anakin Skywalker not Vader. Regardless of what Padme truly believes, Vader does not believe Padme can ever love him, ever.

No, they were already married , in AotC. So it's not a question.

If Padme told him differently and show him love, he would accept it, just like Luke did. Padme didn't want to rule the galaxy, but she wants to save Vader.

[*]Vader is still set on ruling the galaxy and overthrowing the Emperor. He is not interested in settling down on Alderaan and starting up a family. He knows therefore that a Padme clone would never join him, as she has already expressed a desire not to do so.

He wants to do it with Padme, as a politician, Padme could work the way around it, probably even use Vader's power in the Empire to help the rebels.

[*]Vader doesn't want to put Padme through the pain of seeing the monster he has become. He is not entirely selfish and stupid he will not believe for a second that Padme could ever love the monster he has become even if that is not true, he does not believe it to be true. Padme's thoughts on the matter are irrelevant.

Nowhere has this been stated. He wanted to get Padme back clearly in the end of EP III. The novel also never stated he was afraid of that, he wants Padme back, he wants to have her, simple, he stated quite a few times to Obi Wan in the novel.

He just has to listen to Padme's reaction, that's all.

[*]Clone Padme does not equal real Padme. They are similar, but not the same. And when its someone you love, not just a weapon and a tool, it has to be the same person. Especially considering that like it or not, the real Padme is still dead, he still killed her. Do you really think if he clones her he'll just forget about the fact that he murdered his wife and think that's all OK now? Nope, he'll still feel regret and remorse because his wife is still dead, he still killed her. Clone Padme will just keep reminding him of that.

They are similar enough to let, if she has the memory and forgive Vader, that would change his view.

[*]Vader's 'love' may be stronger than the dark side, but he doesn't believe or recognise that. The only emotions he is aware of our anger, sadness, remorse and regret. Clone Padme cannot free him from any of those emotions, only make them stronger. Cause she ain't Padme.

He will understand if Padme show him the opinion. Her opinion is exactly Padme's since they have the same persona and memory.

[*]Yes Padme thought their was still good in him, but Vader wasn't there to here that. All he heard is Padme turning against him, also take into account his mind was clouded by the dark side at that point an he likely remembered events differently.

Padme will have chance to tell him if he clones her, and he does know he loves Padme and will always love her even in the end of RotS.

[*]Padme would not join Vader to do evil. There we go then, debate over. Because that's what Vader wants, and he knows he can't have it. 1. Because Padme doesn't want it 2. Because he was no way to bring the real Padme back.

No, but that does not mean she would leave Vader, she never said it and to help the rebel, it would be the best for her to stay with Vader. Again she's a politician.

[*]Vader no doubt hates his life, but he realizes he cannot change it. I'm sure if Vader was given the opportunity to do things differently he would. Unfortunately he doesn't have the opportunity and has resigned himself to the dark side forever. I'm sure if he could change back the clock and not strangle Padme he would, but he can't do that. Not even cloning her will bring back the real Padme.

He will realize it once Padme is with him, just like he did in the end of RotJ, is it too late for him? No.

[*]Vader never cloned himself to train Starkiller, I'm afraid you made that up. He clearly cannot do this else he would have done so long ago.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Darth_Vader_%28clone%29

[*]Palpatine promised to help save Padme, but only to turn him to the dark side, he did not really care. Post-Mustafar Sidious used Padme to control him and enslave him, hence why he told him he was dead, if Padme was resurrected and Sidious found out, he would kill her. Why? Because like you say there is a chance Padme would attempt to turn him to the light or Vader might regain his confidence and attempt to overthrow Palpatine. Vader doesn't know this, but he does know Sidious is an evil megalomaniac. And if Sidious killed Padme, Vader would be powerless to stop him.

That's totally not the case, if Sidious killed Padme, Vader would raise all the hate and anger he has to annihilate Palpatine because he's the Chosen One, even after he was crippled he still could have the potential to heal his body if he gave him to the Dark Side completely, kill Padme would just give him the reason to do it.

http://www.jedipedia.de/wiki/Joruus_C'baoth

for the roughly 6,892,012,433 other people on the planet who don't speak German could you please provide a link to a wiki page for this character that is in English?

Vader thought he's beyond redemption because Padme is dead and he had no choice but to stay in the Dark Side, that's been told quite well in the end of RotS novel, if Padme could come back, that's a different story.

Nowhere has this been stated. He wanted to get Padme back clearly in the end of EP III. The novel also never stated he was afraid of that, he wants Padme back, he wants to have her, simple, he stated quite a few times to Obi Wan in the novel.

 

He just has to listen to Padme's reaction, that's all.

In Vader's vision of his dead wife, Padmé Amidala was heartbroken to see what her once heroic Jedi husband had been reduced to—a broken shadow of the man he once was...

...Amidala was not moved by Vader's feelings of self-pity and referred to him by his birth name. In that moment, Darth Vader angrily rejected his former name and regarded it as something that no longer possessed any meaning for him. He tried to rationalize his frustrations at himself by declaring that Anakin Skywalker died with his wife. But in rejecting who he once was, Vader caused Amidala to turn away since she had come for Anakin, not Vader...

...As Vader descended deeper into the depths of the Cathedral, he encountered another vision of Amidala, whose beauty was overtaken by the decaying effects of death. She forced Vader to stop lying to himself and finally confront the truth—Amidala did not just "die," she was murdered in cold blood by her own husband. Overwhelmed by the indescribable pain and sorrow that filled his entire being, Darth Vader fell to his knees with tears of remorse in his eyes. He confessed to everything, from killing his wife to destroying his life as Anakin Skywalker; he confessed his belief that Amidala's unborn child died as a result of his actions as well. Ultimately, what he hated most of all was himself for all of the evil that he committed as Darth Vader. Amidala forgave her husband, whom she referred to by his Sith title, causing Vader to shed a final tear for all that he had lost.

Vader then proceeded to collapse the building on himself, leaving his fate to the Force. After being buried alive for three days he survived and was rescued by Darth Sidious, proving it himself that the dark side and service to his Master was his destiny. Not Padme, who had proven to him that he had killed his wife, and that she only loved Anakin, not the monster he had become. Its certainly not an encounter that would encourage him to clone her. Also note Anakin believes he killed his unborn child, which would only make cloning Padme all the more painful because he knows that both Padme and his child are dead.

I cannot stress this enough, a clone is not Padme no matter what you think. Cloning Padme is just sick and peverse, it will not change anything. The real Padme will still be decaying in the ground (with his child as he believes) and he still would have destroyed his life as Anakin Skywalker. Padme may forgive him for what he's done but she's already done that, there is nothing more for them to do. Padme loved Anakin and Anakin is dead, their relationship is at an end. (Despite what Padme says before dying, it would seem that she no longer has any intention of loving Vader else she would have said as much and tried to do all the things you suggest she would have done.)

The rest of your points are presupposing that Vader would clone Padme and are therefore irrelevant. Just as it is irrelevant if I would like the taste of a chocolate bar when I refuse to eat it.

Oh and for the record, Vader can't even touch Sidious. In fact when Sidious tells him Padme is dead he crushes everything in the room, including attempting to crush Sidious but he cannot touch him. I believe this is explained quite clearly in the RotS novel. Perhaps Wolf can provide a quote? Either way, Sidious will want Padme dead and could instead disguise it as assassination by another party, making Vader all the more dedicated to the Emperor. Cloning Padme would put her in immense danger, not just from the Emperor, but from all his other enemies, and himself.

Exactly. If Padme came back it would be a different story. But Padme isn't here so right now we're in the Vader-hates-himself-for-killing-his-wife-and-can-never-do-anything-to-bring-he-back-so-may-as-well-resign-himself-to-the-dark-side-forever story. That one doesn't have a happy ending... (well, sort of.)

That's why he has the motive to clone her.

That doesn't matter. This is all speculation anyway we don't need canon facts to tell us if Vader wanted Padme to witness the monster he had become or not, we have logic for that. Nonetheless sometime after Padme's death her spirit did visit Vader and it wasn't pretty. A few excerpts from Wookieepedia:

Padme's reason is G Canon, and in RotS novel Vader made clear he wanted Padme back, he made it clear many times.

Do not forget, Anakin already became Vader after he accepted Palpatine as his master and joined the Sith, not after he became a cyborg. So Padme's view is quite clear

I cannot stress this enough, a clone is not Padme no matter what you think. Cloning Padme is just sick and peverse, it will not change anything. The real Padme will still be decaying in the ground (with his child as he believes) and he still would have destroyed his life as Anakin Skywalker. Padme may forgive him for what he's done but she's already done that, there is nothing more for them to do. Padme loved Anakin and Anakin is dead, their relationship is at an end. (Despite what Padme says before dying, it would seem that she no longer has any intention of loving Vader else she would have said as much and tried to do all the things you suggest she would have done.)

She has the same persona, memory and looks, that's quite a lot for Vader.

Padme would bring Anakin back rather than just leave him, it's been made clear in the movie, the Anakin she talked with is already Darth Vader, overall, Anakin and Vader are not different people, it was the darkness in Anakin caused his downfall, and the light in his heart redeemed himself.

Oh and for the record, Vader can't even touch Sidious. In fact when Sidious tells him Padme is dead he crushes everything in the room, including attempting to crush Sidious but he cannot touch him. I believe this is explained quite clearly in the RotS novel. Perhaps Wolf can provide a quote? Either way, Sidious will want Padme dead and could instead disguise it as assassination by another party, making Vader all the more dedicated to the Emperor. Cloning Padme would put her in immense danger, not just from the Emperor, but from all his other enemies, and himself.

That's when he just became the cyborg, later he became much more powerful, far surpassed his RotS self on Force Power.

Lucas made clear he's around 80% of the Emperor's power, if he goes rampage it's obvious he could take down Sidious. No, Sidious couldn't sense Padme like he sensed Star Killer, he couldn't even sense the twins before they revealed themselves.

I'm still really confused as to how you think Vader thinks this will pan out. So, he clones Padme, she wakes up. And he's like, Padme its me! And she's like and probably doesn't even believe its Vader (she has no reason to) so after she's got over her initial shock and the fact she is a clone (presupposing that the cloning process will actually work which, for the record, it probably will not) He gives his whole, "come rule the galaxy with me speech" and she's like

That's why he has the motive to clone her.

Padme's reason is G Canon, and in RotS novel Vader made clear he wanted Padme back, he made it clear many times.

 

Do not forget, Anakin already became Vader after he accepted Palpatine as his master and joined the Sith, not after he became a cyborg. So Padme's view is quite clear

She has the same persona, memory and looks, that's quite a lot for Vader.

 

Padme would bring Anakin back rather than just leave him, it's been made clear in the movie, the Anakin she talked with is already Darth Vader, overall, Anakin and Vader are not different people, it was the darkness in Anakin caused his downfall, and the light in his heart redeemed himself.

That's when he just became the cyborg, later he became much more powerful, far surpassed his RotS self on Force Power.

 

Lucas made clear he's around 80% of the Emperor's power, if he goes rampage it's obvious he could take down Sidious. No, Sidious couldn't sense Padme like he sensed Star Killer, he couldn't even sense the twins before they revealed themselves.

COLOR=#CC9E42]Reallly? Sidious' lightning would fry Vader's suit instantly and render him incapacitated. Or are you forgetting what happened at the end of RoTJ? The battle would go something like

. Palpatine may not be able to sense Padme, but once he senses a change of emotions in Vader he can easily read his mind and discover the truth. He has done this before from light years away.

I don't want to intrude on this discussion, but I would like to point something out real fast. Remember Return of the Jedi. Vader takes Sidious' lightning (which was amped up when Vader picked him up) for several seconds and throws him down the shaft. Then he makes his way down to the hangar from the observation chamber on a moon sized battlestation.

And this was after Vader had given up the Dark Side. So Sidious' lightning won't instantly fry Vader's suit and incapacitate him. A constant stream would eventually do it, but not instantly.

Also remember that Sidious' lightning killed Windu in an incredibly short time. So Vader has incredible resistance to Force lightning. (This is a pre-emptive strike for Vader's battle in The BattleZone )

Carry on.

Wait? What? When did this happen? Last time I checked Palpatine created those clones to inhabit his spirit, and did so. Retcon that and you may as well do away with it all together... as it no longer makes canonical sense.

 

EDIT: Just checked again, it would seem that no such retcon has happened, not sure where you heard this...

Sorry, thought I'd heard that somewhere, my bad. What I remember is, Mara said she never bought to the fact that it was actually the Emperor, and in her opinion they were just wacko clones.

I don't want to intrude on this discussion, but I would like to point something out real fast. Remember Return of the Jedi. Vader takes Sidious' lightning (which was amped up when Vader picked him up) for several seconds and throws him down the shaft. Then he makes his way down to the hangar from the observation chamber on a moon sized battlestation.

 

And this was after Vader had given up the Dark Side. So Sidious' lightning won't instantly fry Vader's suit and incapacitate him. A constant stream would eventually do it, but not instantly.

 

Also remember that Sidious' lightning killed Windu in an incredibly short time. So Vader has incredible resistance to Force lightning. (This is a pre-emptive strike for Vader's battle in The BattleZone )

 

Carry on.

And lets not forget, Vader was not feeling no where near the full extent of Sidious lighting as Windu did. As the lightning was not directed at him but at Luke, and then above him. Vader only felt the residual effects and even then it was gameover.

EDIT: Also note that despite the size of the battlestation, the hangar was likely not that far - ease of access for the Emperor and all.

And don't feel this is a private debate, its an open thread, your opinion is more than welcome.

(P.S. I plan to bring Vader's resistance to lightining into dispute in the Tournament, I remain open minded but am far from convinced... Not that that would be a problem for Traya. )

Here is the common misconception. Vader did not stroll down to the shuttle, get in and then just die. He was half carried by his son. Nonetheless it is irrelevant, he was incapacitated was he not? He couldn't walk without aid from his son. He wasn't exactly in the position to draw his lightsaber and carry on the battle. Given the fact that Sidious can unleash an endless stream of lightning there is nothing much Vader can do but curl up and die. The clip I provided demonstrates as much.

 

And lets not forget, Vader was not feeling no where near the full extent of Sidious lighting as Windu did. As the lightning was not directed at him but at Luke, and then above him. Vader only felt the residual effects and even then it was gameover.

 

And don't feel this is a private debate, its an open thread, your opinion is more than welcome.

 

(P.S. I plan to bring Vader's resistance to lightining into dispute in the Tournament, I remain open minded but am far from convinced... Not that that would be a problem for Traya. )

Yes, he was half-carried. But if he was so weak to lightning was you say, then he would have been incapacitated or killed. Also take note that he had given up the Dark Side, the very thing that kept him alive for all those years.

The fact that Vader survived the lightning and made it down to the hangar is a testament to his resistance to lightning. I also believe that Vader took the full force of Sidious' lightning. If we watch ROTJ and ROTS, we can see both Windu's and Vader's skeletal forms show. That leads me to believe that Vader did take just as much of Sidious' power that Windu did.

The argument that Vader is weak to lightning comes from him being killed by Sidious' lightning. But then, Mace Windu got killed by it too. Is he weak to it? Pretty much any guy is weak to Sidious' lightning because it is the most powerful lightning ever. Discussing Vader being killed by Sidious' lightning is pointless because anyone can get killed by it. Even Yoda could barely handle it.

So really, the Vader < Lightning argument is a pretty poor one considering everything else. Plus the wealth of evidence that shows his resistance to it.

But back to the actual discussion (respond to the above if you want, or save it for Vader's match).

Vader simply would not clone Padme. It's not in his mentality. Anakin Skywalker is dead and he's a monster. Padme would be horrified to see her champion reduced to a slave of a madman. Not only that, but if Palpatine found out, Padme would be dead... again.

I doubt Vader would want to put himself through losing Padme again, even if she was a clone.

Edit: Beni, I may or may not have given Traya a tough battle. We'll see.

Edit: Beni, I may or may not have given Traya a tough battle. We'll see.

"You're overconfidence is your weakness."

Shut up!

P.S. And yes, I will leave the Vader debate until its time.

Ha! There is no such thing!

 

"You're overconfidence is your weakness."

 

Shut up!

 

P.S. And yes, I will leave the Vader debate until its time.

...

To be honest, I don't think the lightning debate will come up for Vader's match unless he makes it to Round Two. But let's go ahead and leave it for another time.

 

The fact that Vader survived the lightning and made it down to the hangar is a testament to his resistance to lightning. .

Its actually has more to do in showing, that he had *********** strong *** Willpower. With all the crap he has survived before, that is a fact.

Its actually has more to do in showing, that he had *********** strong *** Willpower. With all the crap he has survived before, that is a fact.

You make a very good point regarding that. Vader has been through a lot.

He has been shot, stabbed, slashed, crushed, torched, fried, mutilated, and everything in between and he still survives. Didn't he will himself back to life too?

You make a very good point regarding that. Vader has been through a lot.

 

He has been shot, stabbed, slashed, crushed, torched, fried, mutilated, and everything in between and he still survives. Didn't he will himself back to life too?

Ya he sure did.

Ya he sure did.

I don't normally say this, but...

That's hardcore.

I don't normally say this, but...

 

That's hardcore.

Well what did you expect? Its Darth Vader!

You make a very good point regarding that. Vader has been through a lot.

 

He has been shot, stabbed, slashed, crushed, torched, fried, mutilated, and everything in between and he still survives. Didn't he will himself back to life too?

Wow I knew Luke willed himself back to life but I never knew vader did it when did this happen

Wow I knew Luke willed himself back to life but I never knew vader did it when did this happen

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/2297113-new_picture_super.jpg

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/4/48765/2297113-new_picture_super.jpg

oh nice what was it that caused his death? lack of oxygen I see his helmet off.

oh nice what was it that caused his death? lack of oxygen I see his helmet off.

In the Lost Command, Vader and his squad were ambushed by Lady Saro along with Atoan insurgants(a large number of them) along with Shale ambushed the squad, killing them and then Vader sustained damage from flamethrowers(which he withstands for a time but then eventually just crumples to the ground). They then chain him up like in the picture and thus there it goes. He also kills a squad of Storm Commandos(but I don't know in what timeframe that takes place, before or after.)

This is the same comic, where Vader collapses a cathedral on himself, Shale and Saro(killing the latter two) after escaping his bindings.

So in that one comic series, Vader killed a squad of Storm Commandos sent to kill him, withstood flamethrowers for a time(I don't got that scan sorry), then willed himself back to life, then collapsed a cathedral on himself and surviving for days without food or water. I think it is also the same comic series(The lost Command has 5 issues) that Vader survives a point-blank explosion.

==

Now a question for you, when did Luke will himself back to life?

With Vader and lightning, I believe Vader died of same reason Plaguesis died - his life support was damaged. Vader could survive the lightning - his body is not damaged after taking his helmet off. But his life support is off, and he just didn't make it.

You quote comics, that he was able to survive without mask. I quote "Shadows of Empire" where Vader states himself that he can't survive without his respirator for longer than few minutes. Besides, both sources are irrevelant, as they are lower canon than movies.

With Vader and lightning, I believe Vader died of same reason Plaguesis died - his life support was damaged. Vader could survive the lightning - his body is not damaged after taking his helmet off. But his life support is off, and he just didn't make it.

 

You quote comics, that he was able to survive without mask. I quote "Shadows of Empire" where Vader states himself that he can't survive without his respirator for longer than few minutes. Besides, both sources are irrevelant, as they are lower canon than movies.

He died because of his life support and also letting go of his hate, that kept him alive. The fact he survived from the throne room on the 2nd death star, to the hanger bay shows that he can survive for a time without his respirator on willpower or hatred alone or both. If you recall, he did also survive and was moving after getting 3 limbs cut off and set ablaze(thus damaging his lungs) until Palpatine showed up, and also surviving on the operating table without any drugs to numb the pain.